Reader Comments -- Netscape Navigator 6.0 to Fail Standards Compliance

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Reader Comments -- Netscape Navigator 6.0 to Fail Standards Compliance
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November 7th, 2000 11:38 AM

My biggest frustration with the Netscape browser is encountering inconsistencies between versions. A perfectly legitimate JavaScript function that executes properly for one version suddenly requires a work-around for another. Bugs happen, but if there are bugs in your browser that you know about and even have a solution for, there is no reason to wait until a later version to fix them, subjecting your coding public to yet another batch of headaches-inducing coding paradoxes. Please realize that such inconsistencies do nothing to instill loyalty from the web development community. For your own sake, if not ours, please try to release as stable and bug-free a product as you can each time around.

Stefan Langer

November 7th, 2000 11:38 AM

Get it together, Netscape.

You're dragging down the entire industry with your abysmal product. I don't care at ALL about:

Graphical Themes
AOL Instant Messenger
The LAME "What's Related" feature
A sidebar where you can post ads
Shading in the navigation buttons

Apart from a faster rendering time, which is STILL slower than IE, it seems like the above list is where you've spent all your efforts. I got an idea, HOW ABOUT RENDERING HTML?!?!?

This is ridiculous. Netscape used to be a standard and is now a complete burden on the entire web development community. The lack of CSS compliance is stunning; That's been the number one complaint about Netscape for the past 3 years now and they didn't do anything about it. Supposedly there's going to be true Java 2 support; I'll believe it when I see it. I wish they would just go away altogether rather than release another half-baked piece of garbage. I'm no fan of Microsoft, but at least they produce a product that works!

Michael Young

November 7th, 2000 11:36 AM

Which is more painful: the failure of Netscape to make good on its promise of standards compliance in 6.0, or watching Microsoft better support open standards.

Jamie Leslie

November 7th, 2000 11:34 AM

I can not believe the author or many of the responses herein. Netscape decided to freeze their code. This means that they will only fix show stoppers, not every little bug that comes along. You might say, "Hey, I want those bugs fixed. I want them to wait and ship good code." Well, maybe, you have never worked on a large project before. It is not possible to ship a large program with absolutely no bugs. What you do is freeze, stablize, and the release. Pick up any bugs in the next release. "Wait, thats just how Microsoft ships all their bug ridden crap", you say. But you don't seem to understand the this is how software works. Look at other open source projects. Look at the Linux kernel, it will ship with known bug when 2.4 comes out. Does that mean it should not be released? No. It means that large projects are very very difficult to make bug free. Eventually, you have to chose to release or stay in beta forever. Pick any othe Open source project or product on the market that is at least 100,000 lines of code. Each of them will have known bugs.

It is a matter of choice when to freeze a software set. If you freeze too early you end up with many bugs in the release. If you freeze to late you prolong the beta. Netscape made the choice. You do not have to agree, but you should not act as if they are purposely attempting to make a buggy product.

A rational evaluation of Netscape 6 yields that it is a good product and is on track. I personally believe that it will be more standards compliant than other browser on the market currently (Yes. IE has many bugs and standards problems).

Please, give some serious thought to your position before you spout off about things you seem to know very little about. Take the time to investigate the compitition. Take the time to test the product at hand. Then attemp to render a non-bias report (Of course this would require you to act like a journalist).

Troy Roberts

Troy Roberts

November 7th, 2000 11:34 AM

Please don't release yet another subpar browser. There are more than enough of those currently out there. It is worth waiting for a browser that supports the current standards. I'm a big Netscape fan, and always have been. Having used IE, because we are a Windows only workplace, and not every machine has Netscape on it, I can say that I do not like IE. In fact, I'd go so far as to say that I hate it. Part of this comes from the fact that I don't want to have to learn yet another broswer and how to work around its bugs. If you fix the problems with the current Netscape 6.0 builds before you release them, and therefore create a (pretty much) standards compliant browser, then yes, it is another browser to learn to work with, but I won't have to learn to work around its deficiencies. If the browser is released in its current state, it is just another piece of crap that I have to learn to work around if I want to use it.
Please don't make Netscape 6.0 that second one. I've been waiting for 6.0 to be released for quite a while now, since it was supposed to be standards compliant, and I am willing to wait some more.

Thank you.

Rick Pufky

November 7th, 2000 11:33 AM

Rick Pufky

November 7th, 2000 11:30 AM

This is more evidence (if more is needed) of Netscape Inc.'s complete lack of understanding of it's product and the marketplace in which it is fighting. It should come as no surprise, too, since there hasn't been a Netscape Communicator release that hasn't been filled with bugs and relatively unusable.

In this case, Darwinism will win and Netscape Communicator will finally come to the end of its slow demise to (finally and thankfully) market-share death.

Jonathan Dale

November 7th, 2000 11:26 AM

Netscape/AOL: Do yourself (and the world) a favor and give us a decent (and speedy) browser that adhears to the standards. If the broswer sucks no one is going to use it so no one is going to see any of the other fancy marketing stuff you seem to care more about.

Scott Foust

November 7th, 2000 11:26 AM

If Netscape 6 is released with known severe flaws, I will refuse to write code for this browser. Pushing flaws on the development community is an unacceptable practice and I will not support it.

sincerely,

Patrick Corcoran

November 7th, 2000 11:25 AM

To whome it may concern;

I would like to register my protest to Netscape 6.0's incompliance with open standards. Open standards are of increasing importance today as networks become more interconnected but no more homogenous.

Netscape enjoys a near exclusive market in areas overlooked by Microsoft's Internet Explorer. However, this market is small by comparison and many emulators exist which allow one to run Windows software on a variety of platforms, with or without Windows. Such software includes VMWare and Wine.

Placing a browser which does not support the current open standard on the market will not help Netscape at all. Indeed, it will likely hurt Netscape, and if Netscape's parent company, AOL, adopts the browser, will only hurt AOL.

Please consider waiting to release your product until it works properly and meets the market needs. This is not about cash tomorrow, this is about having income in a year from this project. I, myself will not use a browser that does not display pages properly, even if I have to rune Internet Explorer on my Linux box using Wine.

Very Truly Yours,

Chris Travers

Chris Travers

November 7th, 2000 11:24 AM

This is indicative of why Netscape has all but lost the "Browser Wars". The folks there no longer care about releasing something for the "user" and more about picking his or her pocket. It is a shameful day when I support the monopolistic leviathan over the underdog.

Jonathan Jason Sy

November 7th, 2000 11:24 AM

Netscape, you are doing yourself and your customers a huge disservice.

I work for a rather large coorporation that bundles your browser with its
OS. Continuuing bugs and competitor induced compatibility issues are
eroding your market share within this company. If you release the 6.0 browser
with even more problems than the 4.x browsers you will basically be sealing
the doom for support for your product in this company. The alternatives
will make my job a nightmare.

Please, fix the bugs, slip the release.

And tell your managers that
Dilbert is supposed to be for _entertainment_only_ - its not supposed to be
a management howto manual.

Dan Doner

November 7th, 2000 11:24 AM

Patrick Corcoran

November 7th, 2000 11:24 AM

The only thing I can suggest to you, Netscape, is that you first concern yourself with creating a product with a solid foundation before you try to impress potential users with fluff (such as all the unnecessary shooping tabs, etc). Build a solid, stable product that fully supports modern standards, and you will be surprised to see people come to YOU.

Sincerely,
John Quigley
CS Major @ The University of Vermont

John Quigley

November 7th, 2000 11:23 AM

As a developer, the issue of compatibility comes up on every single project.

Netscape has no followers any more here at work. Many of us were die-hard Netscape users when we started, but once we learned what we were missing out on, in order to be competitive we all were forced (through logic and reason) to the other side of the browser fence.

All I can really say is that Netscape is lucky that they got such a stronghold right at the beginning, because most of us around here look forward to the day when they either catch up All the way, or just quit their weak attempt.

If they're more concerned with releasing their flawed product rather than making sure they focus on quality, I hope they do lose. What sort of strategy is that? It worked with Microsoft and windows, but that was close to a monopoly.

I think this release could be a pivital point for Netscape. If they can step up to the plate and deliver, they might be able to salvage some of their following. If not, they might find their only users as people who are not technical enough to know how to uninstall.

-signed former Netscape die-hard

Anonymous

November 7th, 2000 11:21 AM

It is vital that a solid standards-driven Web browser be built. As much as I am not a fan of Microsoft, Internet Explorer is the closest to that realm in the free browser world that I have found.

Netscape's willingness to sacrifice basic functionality for doodads and gewgaws is why I dropped them with Communicator 4.0. I don't need email integrated into it. What I need is a solid, standards-compliant Web browser. After that, everything else is gravy.

In this era when we're all realizing that infomediaries are needed, why won't Netscape realize that building such features into a Web browser really is a value-added feature--thereby realizing that they can monetize that? Build a solid, bare-bones Web browser that works, and sell the extras in stores and online as a value-added upgrade. I think I'd consider that to be a good thing as a consumer.

Geof F. Morris

November 7th, 2000 11:19 AM

Everything that has need to be said has been, just adding my name.

Chad Day

November 7th, 2000 11:18 AM

Microsoft is kicking your ass. Mozilla was supposed to demonstrate the benefits of Open Source and how it can be better than closed source.
Clearly the Open Source software development model sucks.

Another thing, dont ignorantly blame AOL for this mess.

All you people that say Microsoft sucks ..why dont you compare the browsers and see which one wins in terms of standards compliance and ESPECIALLY stability and speed.

Microsoft is the clear winner.

-Johan

PS> Mozilla, prove me wrong.

Johan S

November 7th, 2000 11:15 AM

Standards compliance and stability are the only way to go. All of the shopping and search tabs in the world won't decide what browser I use. What will decide is whether or not the browser in question will render the pages I want to look at properly, and do so without crashing. It would also be a major bonus if it would do so while consuming only a reasonable amount of ram, or have developers forgotten that not everyone has a dual 800Mhz CPU workstation with 512 megs of ram in it? That horsepower is for compiling you applications, not running them! You can rest assured of one thing Netscape: At least I will never use IE, at least until they release a version for *nix, and only then if it works better than something else I have. Clean up your act, or find another business.

Drew Sanford

November 7th, 2000 11:14 AM

Hey Netscape. You can't very well claim full support for standards compliance when you fail in your standard support.

From Netscape's website, "... full support for XML, CSS level 1 and DOM (among others..."

So if you're promising full support. That's what you should deliver. Make sure it's fixed before you release.

Ben Ceschi

November 7th, 2000 11:12 AM

As a developer, I already urge my clients to not support browsers and platforms that would make development too costly. Currently this includes AOL and IE 4.5 for the Mac, but it appears that Netscape 6 will soon be added to this list.

Andrew Smull

November 7th, 2000 11:12 AM

Consider what a drubbing Netscape and AOL will get in the popular and trade press in releasing software with bugs that were fixed but not accepted by the product development team. Any advnatage gained by an earlier release will be quickly negated as users and developers discover these problems.

The good news is that Mozilla will live on and compete with the Netscape-branded offering. There will be a standards-compliant platform, one way or another.

Mark J. Gardner

November 7th, 2000 11:11 AM

I for one, will be encouraging my clients and business partners to support Explorer if this happens. I hardly even make an attempt to check Netscape work unless I get a specific complaint about it.

Chris Baley

November 7th, 2000 11:07 AM

Maybe AOL is trying to imitate MS...

Anyway, here ya go:
Please release Netscape 6.0 whenever it's ready, not before.

Guillaume Lafrance

November 7th, 2000 11:06 AM

Please, do the right thing.

Matt Smith

November 7th, 2000 11:06 AM

Standards compliance on the web is something that needs to be taken very seriously and I encourage you to do so. Yes, maybe Mozilla is more that just web browser, but 99.9% of your customers aren't going to care about that.

I've been a netscape user for several years now, and I'm fed up as it is. Its infuriating when I have to stand up and walk over to another machine to use IE in order to view a web page that doesn't even use plugins!

Michael Crozier

November 7th, 2000 11:05 AM

I'd agree... a delay's far better than shipping a buggy browser, especially when many of the bugs have been fixed.

Tim O'Toole

November 7th, 2000 11:03 AM

Please, do the right thing.

Matt Smith

November 7th, 2000 10:58 AM

Many of us who are developing applications for the Web are counting on standards compliance to ease the burden of supporting multiple browsers. Compliance with standards means working code; just having the intent is not good enough. The only thing worse than having multiple browsers that don't provide working standards compliance is having just one that doesn't. Please don't let that happen.

Dennis Irwin

November 7th, 2000 10:58 AM

I know AOL is the king of non-standards but Netscape can be use to destroy the reputation or make it permanent. If they want to kill Netscape they are doing a great job maybe they should add even more bugs and make it totally incompatible with ALL standards. If not then make it compliant before even thinking of releasing it.

As it is our company change to IE as the default browser because of all the problems with Netscape 4.x. But with IE 5.5 Netscape is been looked at as the solution since it has a some problems. But so far with Netscape 6 it maybe that IE will definately win thank to Netscape itself. That will be sad that we have to pick between very sucky and super sucky software (you can code what you want to be).

I would say, either fix the bugs immediately or prepare to fade away.

I wonder if that is the reason AOL recommends IE over Netscape.

J. Joseph

November 7th, 2000 10:52 AM

For a long time I have noticed netscape getting worse and worse. Or maybe it's just IE getting better and better.

In any case, netscape has become a horrible web browser. The linux versions of netscape 4.x barely work, and the windows versions aren't much better. Mozilla seems to be a bit better than netscape, but it's still nowhere close to where IE is. Hopefully this situation will get better in the future, but I honestly don't see it happening.

Netscape needs to either 1) Give up or 2) Start over.

Carey Tilden

November 7th, 2000 10:52 AM

Do the right thing.

Ian Muttoo

November 7th, 2000 10:50 AM

This is totally disheartening. I spent some time listening to the product team at Spring Internet World in LA this past spring. They hailed NS6 as the most compliant browser to date. They showed off the xul, xml, and other rich features claiming this would bring about the next browsing/web app revolution. This revolution is going to be hard to bring about with a broken application.

No wonder AOL software has always been built on IE.

Russell Smith

November 7th, 2000 10:48 AM

Please, don't publish Netscape Navigator with bugs in standards Compliance

Marek Cervenka

November 7th, 2000 10:45 AM

Standards compliance is one of the core promises of the Mozilla project. Netscape 6 will become the embodiment of Mozilla that most users and working developers will be exposed too. The Netscape marketing department needs to understand that standards compliance is one of the chief selling points for their product and unnecessary compromise will hurt the credibility of both the Mozilla project and Netscape.

No software is perfect on initial release. However, if there are fixes that can be made to ensure the greatest possible standards compliance without unduly jeopardizing stability, then I urge Netscape to implement as many of those changes as possible.

The Microsoft machine may habitually shove late beta product out the door and call it a �release� but I don�t think Netscape can afford to adopt that strategy.

Mark Giglione

November 7th, 2000 10:45 AM

Hmm... As a web developer, I usually have to develop my site for the least common denominator. This means basic CSS and JavaScript commands. If this version of Netscape is released, then that common denominator will drop. This means that either A) I redesign everything B) I bloat my code or C) I fork my pages. None are acceptable. I might just write off Netscape 6 and not develop for it and damn anyone who uses it to broken pages. If this starts to happen on a wide scale then Netscape's market share will drop even more.

The only people who are happy with a shoddy on-time release are the middle managers and the accountants.

Robert Dixon

November 7th, 2000 10:43 AM

The stardards need to be fixed. I am finding that most of the W3C standards are working better in IE5.5 then they do in Mozilla M18. its driving me nuts!

Sean C

November 7th, 2000 10:42 AM

Duh - if the browser doesn't work (i.e., it doesn't render pages properly,
and isn't standards-compliant) it won't be supported.

The effect of holding back will be that thousands of pointy-haired bosses,
designers, and developers will move from supporting 4th-generation
browsers (note plural) to Explorer because: "well, everyone can just
switch to IE, it works better, and it's easier to support".

Please don't let this happen.

Bob Donahue

November 7th, 2000 10:42 AM

Please fix these standards-related defects before releasing Netscape 6.

The promise for NS6 was for a standards-compliant browser; anything less
will be a great blow to your reputation.

Richard Bullington-McGuire

November 7th, 2000 10:41 AM

For better or worse NS6 has been touting itself as *the* standards compliant browser. I find it sad you plan to release it without fully fixing all the bugs that can adversely effect sites that use DHTML.

What then, makes you better than IE? IE, at this time is more compliant than NS4. But I really want FULLY compliant, not MORE compliant. Haven't web developers spent enough time finding work arounds to buggy browsers? FULLY compliant has been the pulpit NS has been banging on since Gecko was released - and I hate to see this decay into yet another case of corporate hypocracy.

Due to the long, (OK really looong!) development cycle, I would guess most of the damage has already been done - one more month will not make a difference. As is, it will be hard enough to get the userbase to adopt NS over IE without having to have them upgrade a short time later.

Regardless, I wish you luck - for those of us who want DOM compliance, you are our best hope for setting an example of a browser done right. Please don't fail us.

David Snyder

November 7th, 2000 10:40 AM

Come on, Netscape, listen to the Mozilla-folk. Put those fixes in, DON'T release bad software for the sake of getting it out the door. I would say I expect that type of behavior from M$, but IE5 was relatively good on release compared to what NS6 would be if released today. The java gaffes are atrocious. PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE correct these compliance issues before release. My domain thanks you.

Damon A. Schmidt
aka Zeitgeist
http://www.godmonkey.com

Damon A. Schmidt

November 7th, 2000 10:39 AM

David Snyder

November 7th, 2000 10:38 AM

I have been following netscape 6 for some time and am quite disappointed in it so far. Please fix the bugs and problems before releasing it. I used to be a netscape fan (at least until netcrap 4 came out). Up till then netscape led the way. I feel IE is a better browser that is easier to develope for. I was hoping Netscape 6 would solve this problem and close the gap between teh two browsers. From what I have seen so far is Netscape 6 broadens this gap and a lot of current websites that work in IE and Netscape browsers will not work in Netscape 6... Please do yourself and all of the web devel people a favor and release a product that works!

Lotus

Lotus Pait

November 7th, 2000 10:35 AM

I agree completely with David Flanagan's comments. Please reconsider putting
this product out until ALL these bugs are fixed.

I was a great fan of Netscape since version 2.0 but becomes really disappointed since the 4.0 release. On Linux I use now Mozilla and Konqueror. On Windows and Mac: IExplorer.

Without removing those bugs, I think that Netscape misuse the potentiality of the opensourceproject "Mozilla": it's a shame!

I have a filmmaker background and I can tell that standards are very important. In 1895 Edison invented the first filmcamera and at the same time the 35mm filmformat. This standard was accepted worldwide and the filmindustry was born. Nobody has ever had the idea to make a 32mm or 30mm filmformat for his or her own businesses...

Netscape: be aware, this will in the end turn against you!

Konrad Maquestieau

November 7th, 2000 10:30 AM

Isn't it about time developers can start saying "It works in Netscape, but not IE" instead of the other way around??

Netscape 6 can have as many bells and whistles as they like (most of which I will instantly turn off), but if it doesn't display pages properly, who will use it?

Mark Evan Jones

November 7th, 2000 10:25 AM

Hey people, do the right thing (as you know in hearts) and the $$$ will follow.

Felix Lee

November 7th, 2000 10:24 AM

I think you know you the right way to do this thing, Netscape/AOL, and it is about time you did it. Get it right, non-standard is not useful!

Troy Johnson

November 7th, 2000 10:23 AM

Save our hair. Don't annoy your developers. Do the right thing. We waited long
enough for NS6; an extra week or two isn't going to make a difference.

Geoff Schmidt

November 7th, 2000 10:23 AM

Quit acting like Microsoft!

Nate Tanner

November 7th, 2000 10:22 AM

Netscape - fix bugs related to standard compliance if you don't
want remaining developers move to IE.

Igor Mendelev

November 7th, 2000 10:21 AM

I thought that standards compliance was what netscape 6 was supposed to address...

Surely it is madness to refuse to include fixes for bugs if they exist already, what are they scared of? Full standards compliance is surely a higher priority than a short slip of the release date. I've already tested the PR3 release and found it to be pretty unreliable still, especially when it comes to running java applets. Netscape - GET IT RIGHT!!! We want a compliant browser (and browser vendor!!!)
alex@digicode-systems.co.uk

Alex Clements

November 7th, 2000 10:21 AM

Please don't release NS6 until it is right. The issue isn't really that you're rushing it out, as others above have pointed up, in thoughts that you are instantly going to be competing with MSIE, so why not do it right? If you do, it will be easier for all of us to encourage its use. But if you don't, it will be like falling off a log to ignore it and tell others to do the same.

Trip Kirkpatrick

November 7th, 2000 10:20 AM

Please, take an example from Debian developers: Do not release a program with KNOWN bugs! Respect the standars!

Jos� Daniel Mu�oz Fr�as

November 7th, 2000 10:20 AM

As a Linux enthusiast, I am constantly dismayed by the lack of a good, reliable browser for Linux. This is ironic given that Linux was basically born on the web. My Netscape (any version) will crash about every 30 minutes or so during heavy surfing, and will occasionally even freeze the OS itself. The one desktop application that Linux must absolutely have is a good browser. If the network is the computer, then the browser is the OS. Come on, Netscape, help us out.

Chris Turner

November 7th, 2000 10:19 AM

Chris Turner

November 7th, 2000 10:18 AM

Alex Clements

November 7th, 2000 10:17 AM

0. Release dates are set by marketing, not development.
1. Only compliance to the the de facto standards counts.
2. IE is better and faster anyway.

Forget Netscape.

K Vainstein

November 7th, 2000 10:17 AM

I'm with David, AOL/Netscape should not release the 6.0 version
with these bugs, that appear to have existing fixes. Having these
non-compliance bugs in a beta release is one thing, but in the
first release is another, and will discourage development for
Netscape Navigator (which is already far behind in market share to
IE (75% IE to 17% NS according to yesterday's webref.com's logs).

Mozilla/Netscape 6 was initially touted as *the* standards-compliant
browser, and many develpers pinned their hopes on one of the two
major browser vendors seeing the light. Writing cross-browser
JavaScript/DHTML is becoming more difficult every day (as our experts
will tell you), with these
growing differences between browsers, releasing another major
version without stamping out these DHTML-complexity-increasing
bugs is a bad idea.

The folks at Mozilla/Netscape/AOL have done an admirable job in
creating Mozilla/Netscape 6 (however long it took), we just need to convince
AOL's accounting dept to let the techies do their job and finish
it up.

- Andy King
Managing Editor
WebReference.com

andy king

November 7th, 2000 10:16 AM

Failure to deliver a fully standards compliant browser will crush the hopes of developers the world-over, forcing us to toss Netscape into the rubbish heap of failed crusades of the past.

Barry Weiss

November 7th, 2000 10:15 AM

I love Netscape, and prefer it to IE because it is my preferred mail reader too. I want to be able to use it as my browser full-time, but compatability issues like to ones outstanding in version 6 prevent me from doing so. If you release 6.0 without FULLY supporting existing standards, I can't use it. Don't even bother.

Christina Garden

November 7th, 2000 10:14 AM

I'm with David, AOL/Netscape should not release the 6.0 version
with these bugs, that appear to have existing fixes. Having these
non-compliance bugs in a beta release is one thing, but in the
first release is another, and will discourage development for
Netscape Navigator (which is already far behind in market share to
IE (75% IE to 17% NS according to yesterday's webref.com logs).

Mozilla/Netscape 6 was initially touted as *the* standards-compliant
browser, and many develpers pinned their hopes on one of the two
major browser vendors seeing the light. Writing cross-browser
JavaScript/DHTML is becoming more difficult every day (as our experts
will tell you), with these
growing differences between browsers, releasing another major
version without stamping out these DHTML-complexity-increasing
bugs is a bad idea.

The folks at Mozilla/Netscape/AOL have done an admirable job in
creating Mozilla/Netscape 6 (however long it took), we just need to convince
AOL's accounting dept to let the techies do their job and finish
it up.

- Andy King
Managing Editor
WebReference.com

andy king

November 7th, 2000 10:13 AM

I don't pretend to know the various factors and considerations that go into the decision-making process in cases like this, but all I can say is that as a web developer, I have my hopes pinned on your 6.0 browser. Please address the bugs upfront! I want you to succeed, and as far as I'm concerned, that means full standards compliance. Good luck!

Michael Barrish

November 7th, 2000 10:11 AM

I'm using Netscape since 1.0, still using it, but now I do use more Mozilla. I'm using it for web programming and testing, the XUL interface do look a good idea, it's a future perfect software window.

But, Netscape do need to get a compliant browser on the market, or they will surely suffer from it, how can it be worst to wait a little longer, if it's better why not?

Francis Fillion

November 7th, 2000 10:10 AM

Fix the sucker before you release it.

Ben Galbraith

November 7th, 2000 10:10 AM

I strongly concur.
It seems that if a buggy non-standard release is acceptable, they could have shipped a year ago.
I understand and applaud their determination to make tough decisions on what to accept and what to punt on for release criteria; but I also encourage them to revisit the customer's perspective.
The chance to win the browser war has been lost. But here's a chance to take the high ground, and bring back much needed respect for Netscape.
Standards Compliance and removing crashing bugs should be at the top of the list for release criteria.

Wayne Steele

November 7th, 2000 10:08 AM

As a web developer, I'm continually running into frustrating problems with Netscape's standards compliance, particularly in the area of CSS. I'm tired of having to limit my pages to those things that Netscape can handle, rather than taking advantage of all that should be possible with HTML 4.

Dave Dean

November 7th, 2000 10:07 AM

You would have thought that the Netscape gang would have learned something from Microsoft. But apparently not. The couldn't beat Microsoft playing their own game, what makes Netscape think they can beat Microsoft playing Microsoft's game. <mine, mine, mine, back, back, back>.

Daffy had a better shot getting the genie's treasure.

Philip Grillo

November 7th, 2000 10:06 AM

Guys, PLEASE don't release a non-compliant version of the browser.
"Just Say No" to Steve Case and his band of marketers, and fix the damned
thing. I am stuck in a Microsoft world at work, where I am the only Netscape
user, and I use Netscape at home on my Linux boxen, and I have been a big
supporter of Netscape years. But if you release a sub-standard, non-compliant
piece of crap, you will finally do what Bill Gates has not been able to do,
and that is drive me away.

Good thing Opera has it's Linux version almost ready.

Sigh.

Andrew Wallace

November 7th, 2000 10:06 AM

I teach an advanced web development course at the local University, and sadly, we have to do everything in IE, because Netscape 4 dosen't properly support the standards I'm supposed to be teaching. This is somewhat disapointing, since I don't use windows on my own systems, but am forced to use IE, in order to plan lessons for my classes. One of the reasons IE is becoming so much more popular than Netscape as a browser is because of the sheer number of things IE supports, which Netscape does not. Releasing a broken browser which still does not support any of the current standards will not help you - it will only help Microsoft, and give them more points for advertizing. I can see Microsoft's next ad for IE now: "Use our browser, we can spell, and our competition can't. Oh, it works better too."

Terry McKay

November 7th, 2000 10:06 AM

Andrew Wallace

November 7th, 2000 10:04 AM

I urge netscape to not release the buggy code. If netscape 6 fails, businesses will assume that it is the open-source bazaar model that has failed.

Brian Abent

November 7th, 2000 10:03 AM

I am a professional site developer working on projects ranging from common small-business sites to web-based applications used by police departments nationwide. I've personally spent more than a hundred hours simply identifying and attempting to work around the flaws found in Netscape's 4.X range of browsers, so to hear that tested fixes for known bugs in the new Netscape browser aren't going to be included in the initial release is Really Bad News.

While the development of public-accessable web sites will obviously have to continue with the burden of "working around" a flawed product, this is not so for the private, web-based Law Enforcement software I also help develop. We CAN solve the problem of a browser delivered by a company that refuses to include fixes for known and serious bugs; we'll advise our clients not to use it.

Regards,

Chris Wenham

Chris Wenham

November 7th, 2000 10:02 AM

Please get Netscape 6's standards compliance to a reasonable
level before release, and make sure it is stable. (Fix the
blocking problems with the search results window also.;) I'm
using Netscape 6 PR3 on Linux to post this...

Don't skimp on the Java support either!

I'd suggest keeping the product in beta until you start getting
some glowing reviews... ;-)

Terry Sikes

November 7th, 2000 10:01 AM

If Netscape 6 is released before it meets standards compliance then
all web developers will ever after be stuck supporting this flawed
implementation and no other web browser developers will ever have something
to shoot for.

Joshua Marinacci

November 7th, 2000 10:00 AM

Please get Netscape 6's standards compliance to a reasonable
level before release, and make sure it is stable. (Fix the
blocking problems with the search results window also.;)

Don't skimp on the Java support either!

I'd suggest keeping the product in beta until you start getting
some glowing reviews... ;-)

Terry Sikes

November 7th, 2000 9:59 AM

netscape has always been my favorite browser....until recently. i am an html developer and have become increasingly fed up with netscape. if microsoft's internet explorer completely buries netscape --and clearly it is doing just that -- it won't be because i.e. is a superior product, it will be because the folks at netscape just don't get it. if they're not going to shape up, then good riddance.

j. m. greaney

November 7th, 2000 9:59 AM

The W3C should have some sort of 'mark' like Java does, so that they could keep Netscape from claiming that their browser is 'compatible' with HTML.

Netscape has also been having problems with their Java compliance; you will note that the Java logo does not appear in the about screen!

Netscape will just lose if it tries to go proprietary. Microsoft already has that territory staked out. Developers will code to the 'standard' such as it is and make exceptions for IE because it has market share. It isn't worth it to code to a non-conforming browser if it doesn't have market share. The only way they can survive is to embrace the standards fully.

Fran Taylor

November 7th, 2000 9:59 AM

Totally agree with David. As a� web designer, I have been waiting for the release of ns6, in the hope of finally being able to use some of the cool features of the DOM and CSS. But no.. this only means that there is one more browser that I have to write specifically for.. Now I have to worry about the ie and ns4.x families of browsers AND ns6.. (not to mention all the other brands, and also the legacy versions of ie and ns, witch I don't care about anyways though..)

Sindri S. Sighvatsson

November 7th, 2000 9:55 AM

save me from MS.

Matt Burke

November 7th, 2000 9:55 AM

Someone said that web developers make or break the success of browsers. This is obviously not true, Netscape 4.x sucks major ass, and we still have to support it, for millions of people use it, and the people who pay our salaries don't want to loose that customerbase. Commercial web developers can not fight back.

However, "hobby-sites" (ones not funded by salaries [I know everything is funded by salaries]) should print out something like "GET A REAL BROWSER", if Netscape in fact releases a non-compliant browser, and someone tries to view the page using it.

I believe that this would have an influence, quite simply because there are so many "hobby-sites" out there. Ie. all open-source projects qualify!

Maro

Maro

November 7th, 2000 9:55 AM

save me from MS.

Matt Burke

November 7th, 2000 9:53 AM

Realeasing a buggy, half-vast version as Netscape 6.0 would be a marketing disaster that would destroy every bit of credibility Netscape might have left. I have been waiting patiently for years for v. 6.0, and I would rather wait another month or two than get a buggy piece of garbage.

John F. Sowa

November 7th, 2000 9:53 AM

I'd like to say I was shocked to read this article, but I can't. Unless my memory is already failing me, AOL is the master here and we all know their toon.

I am disappointed by what I just read, and urge whoever in the development team that still cares about a quality product and getting back into the battle, to fight for a quality release.

Jason

Jason

November 7th, 2000 9:51 AM

Please don't release a known-buggy product. Do it right the first time.
Schedules aren't as important as a working browser. We would rather wait and get a release thats worth using.

Thanks!

Michael Turner

November 7th, 2000 9:51 AM

There was a time, long ago, when I looked forward to the release of new versions of the Netscape browser. I remember when it was in competition against Mosaic (yup, been around *that* long ;-) and they started adding silly tags like <BLINK> in order to get people to preferrentially use Netscape over Mosaic (or the very early IE).

Then, when Netscape decided to expand out of its core business (browsers), things seemed to go horribly wrong. And as a result Netscape Navigator started to lag behind Internet Explorer in terms of implementing features and even standards. When I wrote a book on CSS, I was dismayed at how many more elements were supported in Opera or IE over NN. Then along came Mozilla, which seemed to solve the problem of Netscape's perennial problem of dealing with Web standards.

Then I saw the preview releases of Netscape 6. Uck. What happened to the Web standards implementations guys? I was truly shocked at what I saw (or rather, what I didn't see).

As a professional Web developer, I really want to see improvements in the implementation of Web standards, so that I can reliably build Web sites without having to constantly aware of the bugs in certain browsers that standards were supposed to overcome. Argh.

Author of Core CSS (Prentice Hall)

(I may write for the competition, but I am definately behind O'Reilly in this case ;-)

Keith Schengili-Roberts

November 7th, 2000 9:47 AM

Get with it Netscape. If 6 isn't compliant, I won't be designing for it. It's taking forever to replace the egregious Netscape 4, do it right for christ's sake. Your terrible browser has already caused me enough headaches.

Larry vanKampen

November 7th, 2000 9:47 AM

Dear Netscape,
As a developer, I am requesting that you delay release of Netscape 6 until some of the serious remaining issues are fixed.
I write with the perspective of a developer and I am concerned that a buggy netscape6 will delay progression of a more powerful internet.

Please consider your long term future over the short term one. Many developers are hoping that netscape 6 will bring netscape back into the game. A buggy netscape6 may discourage some of them, like me, to abandon it.

topherZ

Christopher Zimmermann

November 7th, 2000 9:41 AM

I knew that when AOL bought Netscape, that it was the beginning of the end for this browser. I had hopes for the Mozilla Open Source Project to actually do what it intended and create the first truly compliant browser so that developers like myself could finally code for the HTML specification, as agreed upon. Sadly, all hopes have been dashed. Netscape is now relagated to the garbage heap. They might as well just stop with version 4.7 and call it quits!

Patrick Beart

November 7th, 2000 9:41 AM

I just hope that all of the AOL users do not start using a buggy netscape browser that will make coding web pages difficult. Then again, if they do, perhaps people will realize all of the problems. You have to smack someone for them to realize their mistake.

Shawn Palmer

November 7th, 2000 9:40 AM

Please wait just a little bit to get the fixes noted by David F., or else call this a beta release with a a follow up that has the fixes. Thank you.

Jeff Martin

November 7th, 2000 9:38 AM

As a web developer, I find it irritating that Netscape would fail to support standards. It is a constant struggle to build a complex web application that works across many browsers. It would be trivial to create a standards compliant site, and assume that it will be viewable on any platform. Unfortunately, Netscape prevents this. I should not have to have two sets of code--one standard, and one Netscape specific. This is absurd.

Ryan Williams

November 7th, 2000 9:38 AM

I currently use Netscape as my default browser because I know if I can make features work in NN, they will work anywhere. I would love to make IE my default browser. It sounds like, however, that I'll get to stick with NN as the lowest common denominator.

Do a good release, please.

David Graham

November 7th, 2000 9:35 AM

I am a web manager for a software company. Currently we do not support Netscape due to non-compliance with CSS. We had been hoping to support Netscape 6, but will only do so if it is truly compliant. If not we will drop all Netscape support...

JW Morgan

November 7th, 2000 9:35 AM

I work at a research center with 6000 outside users. They access our very critical cancer data via HTML, so browsers, for us, are not toys. Our standard browser for HTML development has been Netscape 4 for a while, but we will not be moving to Netscape 6 until it complies with all standards, including and especially javascript. I expect it will be ready by about 6.3.

Jason Powers

November 7th, 2000 9:30 AM

After all these years we have followed you, yet you fail us. Mozilla was our one last hope that developers could finnally code for the one "true" browser. Your failure to release the true working browser will cost you dearly. Programmers will no longer be content to program around your bugs but will return to the days of 3.0, but no longer saying you need Netscape.

Christopher Morris

November 7th, 2000 9:30 AM

All I have to say is please balance out on features/stability and release schedule for NS6 :)

Nathan.

Nathan Tran

November 7th, 2000 9:29 AM

Please don't give us another crappy non-standards-compliant browser to be IE's whipping boy. That sucks.

Joseph Enrique

November 7th, 2000 9:28 AM

While I think it's long overdue for Netscape 5 to be released (made even more obvious by the fact that it's been renamed to Netscape 6), it makes no sense to refuse to accept bugfixes that have already been reviewed and tested, especially with trivial fixes and ones which affect standards compliance. Standards compliance was the only reason the Netscape release was delayed for years; to omit such bugfixes at this late stage is insulting to those who believe in standards. Since those people are a large fraction of Netscape's waning supporters, alienating them is shortsighted.

Don't allow a long delay for standards-compliance bugs that you don't know how to fix, if the browser will still be stable and usable. Do incorporate the fixes for problems that have been solved, or you'll look like fools, especially with fixes as trivial as fixing spelling errors in messages...

Deven T. Corzine

November 7th, 2000 9:27 AM

C'mon Netscape - your browsers have had... display problems until now, so please get it right for once!

Ross Burton

November 7th, 2000 9:27 AM

Netscape:

Fix the bugs in NN 6 and you will win the support of the Web Development community; release NN 6 as is and you will lose whatever dwindling support you have left. Pretty simple, really.

R.S. Willcox

Web Developer

Randall S. Willcox

November 7th, 2000 9:26 AM

I use to think Netscape was THE browser to use and IE was a not worth the effort. I was angry at Micro$oft for releasing IE and not following standards. Now we have Netcrap 6 about to be released which is about to do the same thing that IE did a few years ago. I feel betrayed. I don't like Micro$oft. But, I have to admit that they do have a better browser and they are better at following the standards.

I was hoping that Netcrap 6 could turn the browser wars back around. If this release is published and is full of bugs and is not following standards, Netscape will end up in the same trash heap as many other software products. Better to delay and get it right than release it and get bad press.

These are my thoughts, your milage may vary.

Randall Woodman

November 7th, 2000 9:25 AM

really netscape

its the web developers that will make or break your browser. make them happy or they will just forget about you altogeather.

nurb

November 7th, 2000 9:25 AM

really netscape

its the web developers that will make or break your browser. make them happy or they will just forget about you altogeather.

nurb

November 7th, 2000 9:25 AM

Please get the standards compliance correct first. Too much time is wasted by web developers writing to both IE and NS. Put compliance first.

John Selph

November 7th, 2000 9:25 AM

I used to think Netscape was THE browser to use and IE was a not worth the effort. I was angry at Micro$oft for releasing IE and not following standards. Now we have Netcrap 6 about to be released which is about to do the same thing that IE did a few years ago. I feel betrayed. I don't like Micro$oft. But, I have to admit that they do have a better browser and they are better at following the standards.

I was hoping that Netcrap 6 could turn the browser wars back around. If this release is published and is full of bugs and is not following standards, Netscape will end up in the same trash heap as many other software products. Better to delay and get it right than release it and get bad press.

These are my thoughts, your milage may vary.

Randall Woodman

November 7th, 2000 9:24 AM

As a small time web site developer, I try to develop HTML pages that look the same on both Netscape and Internet Explorer. Recently this has become VERY hard. Trying to develop dynamic content for Netscape is extremly difficult. While I am a fan of Netscape, Internet Explorer is much easier to build webpages for simply because the browser is generally standards compliant. I urge Netscape to do the same; fix Netscape 6.0 before releasing it commercially. Please!

Michael Cameron

November 7th, 2000 9:24 AM

I have been talking the Mozilla project up to all of my friends because the goals were on the mark. Please, don't burden us - the web developers - with yet another compromised browser. You've already alienated every other segment of your user base; don't alienate the hopeful among web developers who are truly your last hope. The only reason we're sticking around is our hope of standards compliance. Take that hope away, and you have nothing besides a group of disgruntled web developers and a browser you cannot sell.

Jonathan Blake

November 7th, 2000 9:24 AM

Another worthless browser from Netscape? Nothing new. Netscape is a goner anyway, and the sooner it dies the better. People are sick and tired of continuous struggle trying to support NS with its ridiculous implementations of standards that has been out there for years. Please release 6.0 as soon as possible!

Kirill

November 7th, 2000 9:23 AM

I am sad to hear that Netscape is failing in the stated objective to produce a standars compliant browser.

I have been saying for years that all browsers suck and I was hoping that NS 6 would change that, sadly I was wrong.

Then again what can we expect from the company that started breaking from HTML standars with tags such as <CENTER> and <BLINK>?

Rob Rutherford

November 7th, 2000 9:21 AM

Back to the drawing-board, guys. We're sick of being caught between two corporate agendas, and it's time somebody cared about quality.

Barry King

November 7th, 2000 9:19 AM

Ever hear of a code freeze?

For all you web developers out there, that's the point where the client, after hearing your latest excuse as to why their corporate website is still not done yet, turns red and says "I don't care if the monkey does not dance. I don't care if our logo is not spinning and not on fire. I want a goddamn website. Have it done by Friday or you do not get paid."

It is the point in the lifecycle of a project where you DON'T ADD NEW STUFF. You know what works, you know what doesn't. You set a release date and gauge what will and will not make it in by that release date. High priority items get in. Lower things often get dropped. That means that you'll have oustanding issues with the final release. No matter how long they delay it, there are going to be bugs there, so at some point you have to draw a line and say "We are never going to make the monkey dance and catch fire. It's one or the other. These are tough times and tough choices must be made." And no matter which one you decide is needed more, someone, somewhere is going to complain "The macarena monkey is neat, but why isn't he burning? I need him to be on fire because XYZ corp.'s flying dolphin does it too!"

Jobo Denballa

November 7th, 2000 9:18 AM

Do the right thing...listen to the web design/development community and fix the bugs they (and your own developers) say are needed.

If Netscape loses the support of these groups, they're sunk.

Jason Allgire

November 7th, 2000 9:16 AM

While I don't really believe that Netscape will listen to the voice of reason and change their minds, I feel obligated to at least speak out in the vain hope that someone at Netscape is listening. As so many people have said before in the petition, the cost for developers and users of not getting Netscape 6 right the first time is more than the cost of delaying the release a little longer. What happens when normal users take the time to download and install Netscape 6 on their 56k modems only to realize that frames don't operate correctly (Bug #46828 which took the developers begging and pleading with the the PDT to accept the patch that fixes the bug. It's still not 100% guarenteed to be in the the release.) After frames don't work, or web sites don't behave correctly users won't bother downloading Netscape 6.01 that fixes these problems, they'll jump to a different browser (Opera, IE, etc).
Netscape: Take a step back and consider the flack you'll receive from developers and users alike before you decide to stick with things Marketing wants (which in and of itself is infamous for destroying good products).

Casey Peel

November 7th, 2000 9:14 AM

I totally agree with Mr. Flanagan - the bugs still existing in the Mozilla bug database, after 2 1/2 years in the project cycle, are horrifying. I was forced to switch to IE after holding out on Netscape for a long long time and until I am shown otherwise, I can't begin to consider going back. And seeing the DOM and CSS implementations so shoddily managed is a strong reminder of why I switched, and why I'll stay. I really don't like Microsoft, but I don't have a choice.

Ross Snyder

November 7th, 2000 9:13 AM

OH PLEASE! The last thing we need is another browser that doesn't follow the rules. Come on Netscape - it's simple, if the browser follows the rules, all the rules, release it. Until then, don't release.

KAS

November 7th, 2000 9:11 AM

I really am sick of netscape, so I say BRING IT ON

Im all for the premature release of netscape 6, as it will almost certainly mean the downfall of netscape.. and for that, I would almost be willing to pay.

When NS6 goes 'gold', hits the shelves, and drags the company down to a 1 or 2% user base, I'll be there laughing, and when im done, ill run home and design webpages will all the fun toys netscape has been depriving us of using for the last 2 years.

November 7th, 2000 9:09 AM

What can I say that hasn't already been said by hundreds of others? A premature, non-compliant release of the Netscape browser will harm everyone, from the company, to its customers and users, to the web developers. Rushing a buggy release will do nothing to bolster an already suffering reputation. Taking the time and care to patch known bugs BEFORE distribution can do nothing but help all concerned. I, for one, wouldn't mind a bit waiting for a new Netscape browser that is fully functional and compliant with open standards. I'd prefer it. Ship a product with known public bugs, and I'll never have a reason to touch it.

Rob Abrazado

November 7th, 2000 9:08 AM

Flush Netscape down the drain and use IE exclusively.

T.A.B.

November 7th, 2000 9:08 AM

Netscape, I hope for the sake of your company that you delay the release of NS6.0 until the remaining major non-compliance issues/bugs are worked on.

There is an entire development team here waiting for your company's market share to drop below a significant number so we can drop support for your buggy and unreliable browsers.

Netscape didn't lose the browser wars because of Microsoft's monopoly and tactics, it lost because of Netscape shipping a sub-par, bug-ridden product.

Sing Chan

November 7th, 2000 9:07 AM

Let's see:

Disregard for Standards,
Disrefard for bug fixes
Disregard for common practices
Disrefard for inhouse developers
Disregard for outside developers
Constant focus on the marketing boys

Wow, I am so proud of Netscape, they are even adopting Microsoft's approach to the development of standards and practices. How special!

Here I was waiting for Netscape 6.0 to redesign my site... Here I was proud that over 45% of the people who come to my site use Netscape...

Why does it have to be Microsoft's competition that drives me to use Microsoft's products.

Ted Tschopp

November 7th, 2000 9:06 AM

From my experience developing high level DHTML for cross-browser use, I am continually amazed at those people (Windows users) that still claim that developing for NS is easier than developing for IE.. and that NS (again, on Windows) is better. To those people I say you must not have been doing anything very advanced at all.

Everything I try seems to work first in IE and then tweaked for NS. It becomes so frustrating. It is dissappointing to find that the the problems that have plagued the users and developers of web applications for years now are STILL the problems plaguing us!

Aren't we in the future yet?

Todd Poston

Todd Poston

November 7th, 2000 9:05 AM

Well... I use IE on Windows almost exclusively. It's really good. But I think Mozilla's not that far. K-meleon was a good proof-of-concept. If it becomes more stable and compliant, I might start switching over. I've been keeping my fingers crossed for several years now, I can keep them crossed a bit longer. Keep up the good work.

Kai Carver

November 7th, 2000 9:04 AM

Another bug-ridden and non-standards-compliant browser would be detrimental to the Netscape brand name and the entire World Wide Web.

mark burdett

November 7th, 2000 9:02 AM

For the sake of the good Netscape name, please ensure the best standards
compliance practical in Netscape 6.0 final.

Frank Warmerdam

November 7th, 2000 9:01 AM

I can't even get NS6 on my Mac to load right without crashing on the homepage (Which is an Excite@Home page with a Flash pop-up screen). So I don't even touch it!

Adam Bell

November 7th, 2000 8:59 AM

Please Please Please Please Please

Netscape can only win by putting off the release a little (who ever heard of an on-time release helping anyone except marketing? it has very little effect in the long run) in order to release a standards compliant browser. See Intel's latest "effort" (releasing a product at 1.13 GHz first is great, if you don't mind all the awful PR when everyone finds out it doesn't actually work). Same thing.

If Netscape doesn't support the standards that a large part of the industry has agreed upon, M$ by default becomes "standard" rather than having multiple products that implement standards to varying levels of accuracy. This is only bad for consumers and developers and Netscape alike.

Tech folks can always just fall back on Mozilla in its various incarnations- it seems the good developers over there are doing the work that should be done- but whether or not Netscape acknowledges this will make a real difference in the future of that company and the technology used by millions of consumers.

Hans Kieserman

November 7th, 2000 8:59 AM

In our computer lab we offer both Netscape and IE. Due to difficulties with Netscape's interface with our on-line course management software, most of our students use IE already.

It looks like there will be no reason for me to update Netscape when it comes out. I'll probably end up eliminating it alltogether.

Jay C. Batzner

November 7th, 2000 8:57 AM

Hans Kieserman

November 7th, 2000 8:56 AM

Standards First!

Mark Knutsen

November 7th, 2000 8:54 AM

Standards compliance should be Netscape's #1 priority. After all this time, I am appalled that Netscape has spent its time and resources adding meaningless features instead of concentrating on what is the browser's main problem, both for developers and users.

As much as I hate most things Microsoft, when a Windows user asks my advice on what browser s/he should use, I can not in good conscience recommend Netscape over IE. Please fix the bugs that the Mozilla team sends you, make Netscape 100% open standards compliant, and you will win back many of the users and developers you've alienated over the years, such as myself.

Drake Emko

November 7th, 2000 8:52 AM

It has been nearly three years since netscape went open source. I cringe at every crash (1 every 10 minutes when viewing sites with java) with netscape 4.7 on linux. If there is anything that netscape can do to make this situation worse it would be to release a buggy product for 6.0. The press will fry netscape into oblivion, rightly so. I've seen the permenant damage that can be done releasing a product prematurely. All the rules are especially true here, given the spotlight. I'd rather wait another six months, I've waited this long.

iksrazal

November 7th, 2000 8:51 AM

I agree that it's time Netscape/AOL thinks about what's really important when developing a browser. Marketability and market share should come after usability user-friendliness, and standards compliance. What good is a browser if it does not support standards compliance? Then your users won't be able to fully benefit from the technologies developed over the past 5 years. This will lead to loss of market share, poor marketing strategies, and the death of the browser.

Mike King

November 7th, 2000 8:51 AM

The browser war is far from over. It is true that Netscape has lost a battle, and they do reside on the losing end, but it is far from over. Netscape needs to look beyond the immediate, wait until their browser is standards compliant. If they do not, it is very likely they will loose the browser war, as people toss out the non-compliant browser for a more compliant one. Compliance is a major issue, now. Moreso than ever, websites are measured for their compliance to open standards.

Netscape, please, please, please wait until compliance bugs are fixed. I work in a predominantly windows-based environment as a web developer, and if you do not take the time to release a standards-compliant browser, there is a good chance our environment will switch to IE.

Tim Hawes

November 7th, 2000 8:49 AM

While I love the Mozilla project, and I beleive that what they have done so far is nothing short of incredible, I can't beleive the fact that Netscape is pulling back bugfixes just to keep up with a release date. It would be different if this was mission critical, but the world has already been waiting for 2 years, another few months won't matter at all.

It would also be different if these bugs were not in the Standards Compliance area, which is the area in which mozilla is supposed to be the mother of all browsers. By compromising this, you compromise the entire mozilla process.

Marc D. Chapman

November 7th, 2000 8:49 AM

As a developer of a newly started web development company, I am sick and tired of html not looking the way it was developed because of the netscape browser. We try and make sure our projects work under both IE and Netscape, but we prefer IE. I have been eagerly awaiting Netscape 6 since I read that it WAS SUPPOSE IT COMPLY WITH STANDARDS. It would be nice to have a multi-platform standards compliant browser available. Since there isn't now, its quite frustrating to develop under linux with a sub-standard browser.

For now I'll continue to develop for IE. And soon for Mozilla, since they apparently know how to apply bug fixes.

Frustrated developer,

Dan Downs

Dan Downs

November 7th, 2000 8:45 AM

What is supposed to make Netscape 6.0 unique, worth waiting for, worth owning, and worth writing for is complete compliance with web standards. Releasing Netscape without the compliance is like M&M's that melt in your hands, Polaroid without the instant, or Frosted Flakes without Tony. What's the point? Do we really need another flakey version of Netscape? I hope the development team manages to realize that adherance to standards and not release date is what is really important here.

Dennis Kelley

November 7th, 2000 8:43 AM

Why is it so DAMN hard for you (Netscape PTP) to relase a bug-free, web standard compliant user-agent? The standards are well documented and the bugs are well tracked. What is the problem? I am a web developer that is sick & tired of trying to develop web pages for two separate browsers. I could ridicule Microsoft's IE4.0 or IE5.0 for there lack of compliance, but they are way ahead of the curve in making attempts to comply, leaving you (Netscape [insert any version here]in the dust! I was excitedly looking forward to the release of the Netscape 6.0 but it appears that Netscape has dropped the ball, AGAIN! Down with Netscape!

Frustrated Web Developer.

Tony Tosi

November 7th, 2000 8:43 AM

We don't need another buggy browser. I design web pages for a living and I'm in charge of browser choices for an ISP. It's really a pain trying to develope for the lowest common denominator (Netscape). If Netscape 6.0 is pushed out before it's ready, with compatibility bugs (which are the biggest issue in the readiness of netscape), then I have no choice but to discontinue all support of Netscape. We will recommend Internet Explorer to all new customers (we should be right now, but we gave it a chance and waited) and simply not support any netscape users. This seems severe, but it just is not acceptable to create a semi perfect browser for reasons that aren't valid.

I don't want to seem retaliatory, I simply hope that Netscape wakes up and starts to make better choices. If they don't, we'll see where their priorities lie and who they're really making the browser for.

James Yoneda

November 7th, 2000 8:42 AM

My involvement in web authoring goes back to the "early days" (c. 1994). Many of us who were around at that time have unpleasant memories of Netscape's arrogant disregard for web standards (HTML 3.0, anyone?). Their tendency to ignore the W3C and go their own way was mimicked by other companies, leading to the mess that HTML is in today. We will never know what could have been, had Netscape been willing to embrace intelligent standards and listen to those who actually write web pages. How ironic that their main competitor, Microsoft, was the first to "find religion" and support web standards.

Netscape 6 is a final chance for redemption. Will NS/AOL take advantage of this opportunity? The choice is theirs.

Mark Haun

Mark Haun

November 7th, 2000 8:40 AM

Netscape has lost any respect I might have ever had for them. As a former web programmer, I have seen for myself the horrors of dealing with non-compliant browsers. Netscape has shown that they care more about appearences than having functional code. Fscking losers.

Joe Yandle

November 7th, 2000 8:40 AM

Dear Mr Flanagan, you are dead wrong. Show me a more standards-compliant HTML browser on the market than Mozilla/NS6? IE? No. Show me a more XML-compliant browser? A browser with support for MathML, even partial - IE? No. SVG support, even partial - IE? No. XLink, even partial - IE? No. 'Nuff said.

Jari Perki�m�ki

November 7th, 2000 8:40 AM

Netscape, You need to take the high ground and remain loyal to the open-source, open-standards that you claim to be a part of.

Mike Christiansen

November 7th, 2000 8:39 AM

I'm all for one-upping microsoft, but releasing as "final" a product that's not really final sounds too much like microsoft's own practices. I agree, Netscape should call it a beta and fix up the problems.

Adam Howard

November 7th, 2000 8:39 AM

It is simple common sense. Fix the bugs before Netscape 6 is released. The world has waited this long, it will wait until these bugs are fixed. The Netscape marketing department seems to have forgetten that cool websites that work are an important selling point, fixing these bugs is simply Netscape's best hope to regain marketshare.

Tyler Bannister

November 7th, 2000 8:38 AM

I'm really disappointed about this decission :( I see the future of the Internet only in open-standars and applications that follow them unrestricted. I'm also reporting bugs as far I found some and to hear that not all of them will be fixed is hard! I see in Netscape 6.0 the one and only chance to choose my OS indipendent of the availibilty of the Internet browser. If more and more developers focus on M$ where will be the indipendance?! Netscape should show them that there is a good and standard compiled alternative so it is no more required to use M$ specific extensions (VBS/ActiveX)! This can not be achived if Netscape/AOL follow the current way :(

Raphael Bossek

November 7th, 2000 8:38 AM

AOL just doesn't get it. That much is clear. What reason does anyone have for using Netscape instead of IE (or something else)? Open Standards compliance has never been and never will be something M$ does well. If it is somehting Netscape does well, then that is a significant delimiter.

Just stating the obvious.

Henry Meyerding

Henry Meyerding

November 7th, 2000 8:36 AM

A 'stable' branch -- Netscape 6 being a stable branch of Mozilla -- is only of value if it contains significantly fewer bugs than the trunk. Hence, it makes sense to fix any and all bugs found, even during a feature deep-freeze, as long as they do not introduce significant instabilities.

Sean Cier

November 7th, 2000 8:35 AM

Netscape engineers need to get over it - they already lost the browser wars! Delaying a release of 6.0 won't make a difference in their market share. They should delay to deliver the appropriate compilance. Won't give them anymore customers either way. :-)

Paul Nelson

November 7th, 2000 8:29 AM

Netscape has promised compliance with web standards since it started remaking its browsers. We've suffered through years of headaches with the 4.X versions. I aligned myself with the other petitions asking that Netscape get it right this time.

Mike
Web Developer
Inter-American Telecommunication Commission

Michael Smith

November 7th, 2000 8:28 AM

I'd been hoping to see some imitation of standards compatibility in the v.6 release. Unfortunately, the project's manager's have yet again diluted the value of what could have been a great project.

Ryan Punt

November 7th, 2000 8:25 AM

I agree completly with what is said in this petition. Please make Netscape 6 the best it can be by fixing the know bugs, I can wait.
John Brier

John

November 7th, 2000 8:25 AM

Dear Netscape, by forcing another non-standards-compliant release, you gain nothing but the ridicule of unimpressed users and the scorn (and probable exodus) of programmers such as myself. Do you really think that anything less than a fully standards-compliant browser has a chance against the much slicker Microsoft Internet Explorer? Standards compliance is your only possible selling point. As the current underdog, you *have* to do better just to hold your own. Take more time if you need it so that you can impress the users and developers rather than reinforce the impression that your products aren't up to snuff.

Ashley Jacobs

November 7th, 2000 8:23 AM

I hope that Netscape will come to its senses and stop being driven by its marketing goons. It is better to slip a date than to deliver a shoddy product. Netscape need to prove that it is commited to quality, and I'm guessing it got into its some of its current fix by ignoring its developers (lets not forget that the rest resulted from the monopolisting dirty tricks of the gnomes of Redmond). I'm more than happy to use 4.x and Mozilla until then - I refuse to use the product of those who would attempt to destroy my freedom to code and use the software and digital media of my choice.

Will O'Donovan

November 7th, 2000 8:23 AM

I have been rigorously defending Netscape from the urinals of history for several years now. A sizable percentage of the web development crowd has a good mind to flush Netscape and crown MSIE the undisputed and perpetual king of browsers (le roi est mort, vive le roi). This would include the end of this nonsense of coding two versions of a script because of DOM incompatibilities. Why support two DOMs if the second one is a fringe?

Were these sorts of mindsets to take hold, Netscape 4.76 users would have to join their compatriots using Netscape v2 or v3 in disabling JavaScript (or CSS) support to alleviate nasty-looking content with screens full of JavaScript (or VBScript!) errors. Granted, v4 has a JavaScript console rather than popping up obnoxious error messages, but it is still a pain.

If the Netscape/Mozilla teams plan to give up on their browser, perhaps I should do the same. Please say it ain't so, Mo' :(

Shane Beasley

November 7th, 2000 8:20 AM

We developers would much rather have the release be well-oiled than be here tomorrow. We can certainly wait another few months; we have been waiting for a while, so please concentrate on getting it right the first time. Don't mimic the Microsoft strategy.

-Jonathan Barlow
BARLOWnet.com

Jonathan Barlow

November 7th, 2000 8:19 AM

I think I speak for a lot of peopel when I say it should be done, and done right, by now. Netscape, you get the award for worst open source project ever.

Wayne Vinson

November 7th, 2000 8:19 AM

What was the point of open-sourcing Mozilla if they ignore the project's advice? We'll take your code, but ignore warnings about the code we take?

Joel York

November 7th, 2000 8:18 AM

News Flash!!! This just in!!!

Netscape has lost the second battle of the "Browser Wars."

News Flash!!! This just in!!!

That might be OK.

Netscape now has a chance to regain every inch of ground lost in the second battle. By releasing a 100% standards compliant browser, Netscape can win back the favor of the users and developers who now break down in tears when they think of the Netscape Glory Days.

Remember when we all laughed at IE3 and lauded Netscape 4.0? Why were we so cruel to MS? What was it about Netscape that captured our hearts and minds? A: It was the fact that the little guy could make a product that worked better than MS. It was fun to see. It was (almost) based on _standards_.

The reason Netscape lost? A: Because IE 4.0 came closer to the elusive Fountain of Standards Compliance. Something is going terribly wrong when even Slashdot posters extol the virtues of a MS product.

If Netscape wishes to lose the most important Battle of the Browser Wars, they should proceed with their premature release of a browser that still fails to meet DOM 0 specifications. On the other hand, if Netscape would just wait for basic standards compliance from their own engineers, they just might have a chance in the future.

I'm tired of cheering for MS and wishing I didn't have to support Netscape. How about you?

Sincerely,
Matt Blanchard

Matt Blanchard

November 7th, 2000 8:17 AM

I have supported the use of NEtscape in every office I have worked in. It is (and i might have to say was) my favorite browser.

I have tried the NEtscape 6.0 Beta and was shocked at the UI design and how much slower my computer operated (imac with 32meg of memory) /

I also was shokced to see how it worked with other email systems.

I hope that AOL/NEtscape fixes the product before unleashing it on the people that have trouble de-installing software.

-rich pickens

Rich Pickens

November 7th, 2000 8:17 AM

I rescend my previous statements about the concerns I have with Mozilla / Netscape. Please refer to http://www.mozillazine.org for a very well documented justification for where Netscape 6.0 is. I think that this is suitable and that a release of 6.0, even a buggy version is very understandable. The bugs listed before, though significant, are certainly not a justification for a hold up on the release.

How many users will be affected by these short-comings?

I am hoping for optimizations in both memory and footprint, and I see them happening every day. More power to the Mozilla team and keep up the good work. This is about moving forward, not backward. OSS lets us manage the public, and as long at Netscape posts patches with a reasonable turn around .. then I honestly believe all will be well ...

Thanks

Jason Key

Jason Key

November 7th, 2000 8:17 AM

As has been noted by most everyone on this petition, you will be sealing your fate if you do not fix your standards compliance before release. Think very, very hard about what you're about to do. Especially you managers at Netscape - not fixing bugs and standards compliance - especially known ones with known fixes! - is mismanagement at its worst.

Paul Ulich

November 7th, 2000 8:17 AM

I've used Netscape forever at this point, both on Unix and Windows systems. Netscape's quality seems to have gone continually downhill, with memory leaks under Linux and ever more random crashes on Windows platforms. Netscape 6 at this point is so long overdue it's pathetic, yet every single Mozilla alpha or beta release I've tried is obviously just that- not release quality. An early buggy release will do NOTHING to improve Netscape's image at this point; indeed, the best Netscape should hope for is to release a solid product, and hope to gain back a few customers.

Scott Wegener

November 7th, 2000 8:16 AM

Please remember one reason free software is so great is because there is no deadlines. Don't publish a "final" version when there is know bugs worth fixing.

Laust M. Ladefoged

November 7th, 2000 8:15 AM

I agree! It should embarass Netscape when Microsoft even comes close to producing a more standards-compliant browser.

I am the author of Sams Teach Yourself JavaScript 1.5 in 24 Hours, ISBN 0-672-32025-8. I'm sure Netscape's behavior in this situation will find mention in David's next JavaScript book as well as mine. I've always been a Netscape fan and would love to be able to write something nice about them.

Michael Moncur

November 7th, 2000 8:15 AM

To those that decide at Netscape:

Please consider that the main competitive advantage that NN 6.0 will have in the market is strict standards compliance. The press will give you only one good shot at getting this right. Sure, you want to be out there sooner rather than later, but at what cost? You need the blessing of the community of web professionals. Please do the right thing, and hold the release until it is right.

Regards,

Ron Thigpen

Raleigh, NC

Ron Thigpen

November 7th, 2000 8:13 AM

Mozilla is very good
It just so happens that I use Mozilla milestone 18 as my main browser. It is very stable, and very nice. To hold it to a higher standard than IE, Opera, NetPositive, or Netscape 4.x is just absurd. It's still preview software, the bugs aren't even all fixed yet.

Joel Schopp

November 7th, 2000 8:11 AM

Netscape should accept the input from the many individuals here as valuable research that didn't cost them a penny. They should take the advice of the people here and release the current 6.0 as a beta version and fix the bugs and compliance problems before public release.

Netscape - Save yourself. There is still time.

Page Ballenger

November 7th, 2000 8:11 AM

I too have waited patiently for the day when there would be a competitor to the ie browser. I too have downloaded many of the mozilla builds to 'test' out the new features - and I too have had it crash my entire system. But I hadn't lost hope. The fact is the developers, like myself have struggled and will continue to struggle to implement cross-browser solutions if these standards are not fully compliant. I haven't lost hope but it is definitely waning.

www.thinksource.com

Ryan Schaeffer

November 7th, 2000 8:11 AM

I develop HTML, DHTML, and CFML applications that must work on both IE and Netscape. It now seems that I must develop two entirely separate sets of applications, as simply developing toward standards will only work with IE. I praise IE for it's speed and standards complaince, but I wish there was an alternative, too. Netscape, are you listening?

Bryan Klingner

November 7th, 2000 8:10 AM

As a professional web developer, I am very concerned with standards issues in the browsers with the largest marketshare. Everything I have heard regarding Netscape 6, up to this point, has been largely positive, and it sounds like it will indeed be the most standards compliant browser available when it is released.

However, if there are serious standards compliance issues--issues that will break or cause problems with existing sites--they most certainly need to be addressed before release. Minor problems, typos, or other such things can be corrected in interim versions of the non-Beta product.

I would not suggest releasing yet another beta version, but believe Netscape should redouble their efforts toward fixing any serious compliance issues before release of the final version. If they can fix them by the projected release date, fine, if not, then postpone it a few days. Just don't release something that's going to make us have to rewrite our pages AGAIN.

Matt Rasnake

Matthew Rasnake

November 7th, 2000 8:10 AM

One of the main reasons for starting the Mozilla project was to release a *fully* standard-compliant broswer. Web users have been asking for this for years. If NS won't release it, then IE will continue it's dominance. Worse yet, it could introduce a fork between the Mozilla codebase (which hopefully will be standards compliant) and the NS base (which, it appears will not be).

NS6 has already been delayed forever. People are willing to wait for quality. If, after this long wait, NS ships a buggy broswer that doesn't support the standards, then this entire rewriting effort will have been for naught. Even if it means that the ship data slips back a bit, these bugs *must* be fixed to bring the browser into compliance with CSS, HTML, ECMAScript and DOM standards. All of the whiz-bang add-ons (my sidebar, Moz-based Jabber, Moz-based IRC, XMLTerm, etc) won't make up for non-standard rendering!

Please fix these bugs!

Derek Morr

November 7th, 2000 8:10 AM

i'd really love a reason to come back to netscape, but if they continue to suck, i'll continue to use exploder.

Johnny Brocolli

November 7th, 2000 8:10 AM

i'd really love a reason to come back to netscape, but if they continue to suck, i'll continue to use exploder.

Johnny Brocolli

November 7th, 2000 8:09 AM

i'd really love a reason to come back to netscape, but if they continue to suck, i'll continue to use exploder.

Johnny Brocolli

November 7th, 2000 8:09 AM

Net$cape has conceded the non-AOL 'browser' market to M$. This release is essentially meaningless since it has nothing to win general consumer market share back.

It amounts to 'we spent the money and we have to release something'. There is no other discernable strategy.

Hopefully this is the last release and we can move on and develop for a single marginally acceptable defacto standard.

Erich Cantoni

November 7th, 2000 8:09 AM

Releasing a non-standards compliant browser will destroy Netscape finally...

Why not just do it properly so that we actually have two working browsers again?

James Semple

November 7th, 2000 8:08 AM

Please take the time to introduce a standards-compliant browser. It will improve your reputation in the Web community, and it will make it much easier for us to work on NS as a development platform.

Jeremy Lang

November 7th, 2000 8:07 AM

Releasing a non-standards compliant browser will destroy Netscape finally...

Why not just do it properly so that we finally have two browsers again?

James Semple

November 7th, 2000 8:06 AM

"Time to Market" comes before "Quality": once again this sorry principle is applied to the development process of what could be an important tool...

Am I alone in thinking that this is why we need Open Source software developments?

Wouter Van daele

November 7th, 2000 8:03 AM

This is my signature.

Thomas Bartels

November 7th, 2000 8:03 AM

Standards compliance is necessary in order to preserve the sanity of DHTML developers everwhere.

Sean G. Evans

November 7th, 2000 8:03 AM

what can i say?

here in germany netscape has been in a downward spiral ever since IE5.0 and this will now go on until they crash - i hope.

well, here is one developer who will strongly recommend people to use IE5+.

it is going to be hell to develop sites for clients who (quite rightfully) insist on cross-browser compatability and a fancy design, though.

stefan bruemmer

November 7th, 2000 8:02 AM

Until recently, there was only one company who was willing to release a buggy software package for the sake of a schedule. This company got away with it because they hold a monopoly in the PC industry. Their tactic was to release poorly-written and designed software to get a foothold, and then improve it with successive versions. They typically didn't get it right until version 3.

Now you want to follow in their footsteps, by releasing software you know to be buggy just for the sake of meeting a schedule. You fought to have Microsoft brought before the DOJ because of monopolistic practicies. If you hate Microsoft so much, why are you following their developmental practices?

Take a page from the video game developers of the world. Release Version 6 "when it's ready". If for nothing else than for us web developers who will have to find ways to make our websites work with your buggy browser.

Geoff Sowrey

November 7th, 2000 8:02 AM

Business as usual at Netscape. Dump the code basis into the hands of the consumer regardless of stability.

Joel West

November 7th, 2000 8:01 AM

Netscape, this is bad news. Don't let Microsoft be the most compliant browser. The only reason to use a Netscape browser on a Windows platform is to show political preferences.

I don't like Internet Explorer (for some UI reasons), but it netscape can't supply a useful browser to me, I'm forced to use IE.

Michael R Head

November 7th, 2000 8:00 AM

ignore the standards and release a non compliant browser.
shoot yourself in the head and watch IE take over.
i was a vehement pro netscape advocate in the first browser war.
if you're going to do stupid things like refuse to slip
ship date a week or even a MONTH to incorporate ready to go fixes
(yes, i KNOW that means more testing etc.) that would
bring you in line with a standard, you WILL lose the second
browser war. and you will deserve to lose.

PLEASE don't throw it all away for the sake of some marketing chumps.
it's much easier to build a good reputation for netscape 6
than to release it too soon and spend the next 6 months
justifying to your bosses why nobody gives a shit about your
browser.

i think the most ironic thing is you're following the MS path here.
take something and add your own custom extensions to it to make it
'yours'.

netscape deserves better than this.

monkey

November 7th, 2000 7:59 AM

Stop creating non-compliant browsers

This is absurd. All these advanced features now available yet unusable because they aren't standardized. It's like a barrel full of candy your not allowed to touch!

Josh Kenzer

November 7th, 2000 7:56 AM

As a web developer, it's all been said above. Get it right, guys.

As a consumer of the product,

I work a little too hard to avoid using the Evil Empire's products. Do you really want me and others like me to have to suffer these bugs?

Sean O'Brien

Sean O'Brien

November 7th, 2000 7:55 AM

I as the 42nd President of the United States of America, husband of Hillary R. Clinton who is running for her Senate Seat in NY warning you that this sorts of non-compliance browser will not be tolerated and will not be allowes to be use by general public. Please make Netscape 6.0 bug free and compliance approved.

The President of USA

Bill Clinton

November 7th, 2000 7:55 AM

Well, this is unfortunate. I've been struggling with keeping my pages cross-platform compatible in the hopes that the next Netscape version would be up to snuff and everthing would be ok. Check this out Netscape:

This page is best viewed in Internet Explorer or Opera.

Sasha Sklar

November 7th, 2000 7:53 AM

all right. i'm trying my hardest to continue rallying for netscape, but i'm tired of writing script after script to cater to the lowest level of standards compliance. NS used to raise the bar for the web--let's see if you can pick it up off of the floor for the next rev.

get it right, guys--we all want the best to come out of NS6.

- s!desh0w

s!desh0w

November 7th, 2000 7:53 AM

Give us a viable alternative to IE. We don't want to use MS products in my division. Standards compliance is the only way to keep management on side.

Jonathan Cole

November 7th, 2000 7:53 AM

It's bad enough that IE is the best available web browser for Windows and the Mac. What's worse is that Netscape is ensuring us that IE will remain the best available web browser for both platforms for the foreseeable future.

Let's lose all the feature bloat in Netscape 6.0 and just work on a compliant web browser, is it that hard? As it stands now I will never, never, never (am I being clear?) never, never, use Netscape 6.0.

Christopher Longo

November 7th, 2000 7:51 AM

I had high hopes for v6 after seeing the preview. I dumped the 4.x versions in favor of IE mainly because of its lack of support for CSS standards. Seeing the list outstanding bugs, there is no way I will use or recommend NS6 to anyone.

R.I.P. Netscape.

Glenn Carr

November 7th, 2000 7:50 AM

Hey, this is open source. If you don't like how it works, change/fix it and make your own distribution.

david andersen

November 7th, 2000 7:49 AM

As a web developer I have to say Netscape 4.x was really bad. It was non standards compliant, it was unstable (on my linux box at least) and I allways ended up trying to work around it's limitations.

I beg you to fix netscape 6.0 so that it will be as standard compliant as posible so that we (web developers) can have a peacefull life in the future.

PD. Except for the fact that they are very unstable on linux, I think Mozilla and Netscape 6 are excelent products.

Paul Pacheco

November 7th, 2000 7:48 AM

http://www.geocities.com/mentifex/standard.html

is a white paper on the Standards in Artificial Intelligence

that implicitly call for bug-free JavaScript compliance to run

http://www.geocities.com/mentifex/js-mind.html (q.v.).

Arthur T. Murray

November 7th, 2000 7:46 AM

Please. Remember that proper operation, and customer satisfaction (ALL customers, to include the technologically literate) come first!

Red Lloyd

November 7th, 2000 7:46 AM

I seem sometimes to spend half my life writing different versions of my
code to generate HTML that works with different browsers.

I really want to stop doing this. And if Netscape 6 defines another broken
browser version, I just won't have the time to work with it...

Tom Ritchford

November 7th, 2000 7:45 AM

OK, listen up. Mozilla (and NS6 which is based on it) is already *far* more standards compliant than IE. True, it is not yet 100% there, but it is very close.

There comes a point in the development of any project when you say: that's enough; let's release what we've got. I understand why Netscape want to release a product now - getting to 100% compliance could take weeks, months, but rest assured the Mozilla team will be working on it.

In the meantime there will be enough in NS6 to get it working 99.999 % of the time. The remaining bugs are trivial and probably documented, the ones which have been fixed in Mozilla will find their way into the next release of Netscape.

I think the Mozilla team deserve our thanks for all the hard work they've put in making a great, open, cross platform product, and one which continues to get better day by day.

November 7th, 2000 7:42 AM

I'm a professional web developer in NYC. We have to make the websites we
develop look and function the same in every browser. That is next to impossible
with Netscape 4.7 being so horribly non-compliant (need I mention using frames
in NS 4.7?) IE 5 for the MAC is the most compliant browser to date. Don't let
Micro$oft gobble up your remaining marketshare by letting down all your fans
with a buggy Netscape 6. For Christ's sake, you skipped Netscape 5, this
release should be 2 versions worth of improvements.

Don't go the way of the DODO.

The ANTI-Coder

November 7th, 2000 7:42 AM

I used to be a Netscape cheerleader. I'd tell all my friends they better get with it and use Netscape as their default browser. Then I started to use IE for a while and never went back to the way Netscape handles HTML. Now that Netscape 6.0 is out, and I've witnessed the horror... I feel like barfing on my dog. Please do the entire world a favor and put off this release until it's something more than just a skinnable piece of horse balls, or don't release it at all. Thank you!

Taber Buhl

November 7th, 2000 7:42 AM

I run the daily builds of Mozilla almost all the time, and they're wonderful.

You've got to make sure that the first non-beta of Netscape 6.0 is equally wonderful, and has all of these bugs fixed, or we'll be stuck with a buggy 6.0 out there that's hard to get rid of, and makes it hard to convince people that supporting anything other than IE is worth their time. Nobody wants that.

Karl J. Smith

November 7th, 2000 7:41 AM

You have to be kidding, I always thought the MS represented the big money grubbing companies. I stuck with Netscape from version 1.0 and, until it crashed on me one to many times, I always convinced myself it was the better browser, since it was not MS. Oh to what depths have you sank Netscape?

spurkey

November 7th, 2000 7:40 AM

Standards compliance is the most important browser attribute.

Dave Richardson

November 7th, 2000 7:39 AM

The Web will be an expensive place to do business, as long as we don't have open standards compliant browsers. How about developing a reference rendering engine that browser makers can adopt in their own products. We have existing products already to choose from (Mozilla, IE). We need to convince the powers that be on the virtues of a standard browser engine.

Carlo Moneti

November 7th, 2000 7:38 AM

If Netscape wants to know why it's losing (has lost?) the browser war, this is the reason - not what ships with an OS. If Netscape wants to catch up with IE, they should focus less on "shopping" tabs that no one will ever use, and more on making a browser that can display pages properly. Interesting idea, eh?

Jayson Avner

November 7th, 2000 7:38 AM

Ah, damn, what we want is to say "This is how it should be", and then fire up a page on Netscape 6 / Mozilla, the promise of standards compliance was made, keep it.

Svend Tofte

November 7th, 2000 7:38 AM

As a user, I reluctantly crossed over to IE from Netscape a couple of years ago when IE started to outperform your product. As a web developer, I am contemplating returning to the old days of "this site optimized for . . . " in order to ween my visitors off the increasingly non-compliant Netscape browser. Hope this helps you see the light.

Hugh Brooks

November 7th, 2000 7:37 AM

Jayson Avner

November 7th, 2000 7:36 AM

Aggressive standards compliance - nothing else with do!

Do not release a buggy product!

We have waited this long - a little longer won't hurt

None STANDARD is none usefull

Jim Massey

November 7th, 2000 7:36 AM

This is pretty discouraging. Yet another browser version with a whole new set of bugs to work around. C'mon, get a solid version in as a baseline for once.

Greg Henderson

November 7th, 2000 7:35 AM

Netscape,

Don't give up the fight. Release a compliant browser and start taking back market share. Show MS how it is /really/ supposed to be done.

Robert Bernhard

November 7th, 2000 7:34 AM

Let me start by saying NS6 is (going to be, for those of you that say it is not released yet) the more standards compliant browser than IE.

For everyone who has ever been involved in the software industry these things should not come as a surprize.
When developing software there, every time a releasedate is aproaching two parallel development paths are followed:
1. Concetrating on ongoing development toward the release after this one.
2. Concentrating on testing, stabilizing and polishing the release version.

Path 1. is being persued by the mozilla organisation and is being conducted in public (more on that later)
Path 2. is being persued by AOL/Netscape

The reason this happens is when path 2 is finished path 1 has progressed and has aquired new features, found and fixed flaws that were not apparent when path 2 started.
This does not mean these things will not be available to people using the release version, allthough it does mean it will be in a next release. The reality is when you want to release a version the line for that release has to be drawn somewhere and in real life this line has to be drawn somewhere before perfection.

I would be very much surprised if this would not prove to be the case in many other industries. I for one would not like to wait until <insert your favorite car manufacturer here> has a car in the showroom that according to their engineers is the best possible car they can produce. And the minute they do I take pity on any of their customers choosing to buy the next model.

The only reason why netscape is being given so much critisism I can think of at this point is because the efforts leading to their next release is out in the open. This is something some people are not used to and as a result have trouble putting into perspective.

So there; the way I see it this is for the most part a complaint about software development out in the open.

As for the points in your petition:
1. Renaming Navigator 6.0 to beta and incorporate patches
This will only lead to the same discussion come the time for the new release date. See above, again there will be new patches and features in the development branch, someone will browse bugzilla and a website will run a story like this.
NS 6.0 scores better than the competition on standards compliance tests, this way you deprive us of having the most standards compliant browser at this time shipping to end users.

2. Refocus on standards compliance.
Your gripe with Netscape cannot possibly be about standards compliance. They are about to ship the most standards compliant browser they have ever put out. Arguably even the best in this field available today.

3. Postpone final release until it is more "robustly standards compliant"
Yo are reiterating point 1. Anyone interested see point 1.

That's it for me, I don't normaly take the time to post in forums, but I feel this needed to be said.

Rob

November 7th, 2000 7:33 AM

Good points --all of them. The only thing that matters in the long run
is quality. Perhaps mountainview is stressed over slowly diminishing users.
But if this ships as a half-assed product, folks will flee fast and in droves.

gleeco

November 7th, 2000 7:33 AM

Please make sure that you comply to all standards before releasing the new version of Netscape Navigator. If not, then NN will be truly dead!

Patrik Grip-Jansson

November 7th, 2000 7:33 AM

I join the others in saying that if Netscape doesn't get its act together, I'm going to stop porting to it. I'm tired of my work running successfully in IE and Opera, and having Netscape screw it up. I'm tired of spending time to find a way to trick Netscape into rendering correctly; expecially when it seems that the Netscape team can't meet me halfway. Netscape, please take all the time you need; the world isn't ending tommorow.

-James

James Beck

November 7th, 2000 7:33 AM

Even as someone who hasn't done a whole lot of work in HTML and JavaScript, I still have been bitten by non-compliance issues in MS and Netscape browsers in the small amount of web code I have written. It is a terrible burden on developers. In my opinion it is far worse to introduce yet another browser with yet another new and unique set of non-compliance issues than to hold off and get it right. Browsers don't go away quickly -- web developers today are still writing code to work around bugs in browsers from two generations ago. Introducing another browser with a new set of compliance issues means at least two generations of headaches for your developers. Don't do it! The current browser is OK as-is. Make the next one great! Not just a different shade of OK.

Bill Baxter

November 7th, 2000 7:31 AM

I agree.

John Murden

November 7th, 2000 7:30 AM

It is my firm belief that if Netscape 6.0 is released without the previously mentioned bug fixes (among others) and complete standards complaince, it will lose its last chance to regain market and mind share from Microsoft IE. I strongly urge that NS 6.0 not be released until it is complete and correct, otherwise there will be no more Netscape after the proposed debacle.

Jay Turley

November 7th, 2000 7:29 AM

Thank you for NOT complying with established standards. The new set of standard-compliance bugs in your new Navigator makes my long work hours even longer, challenges my mind, forces me to look for complicated solutions to easy problems, increases the stress level, and slowly convinces me to IE... Your decision shows a very thoughtful approach to development/business/customer relationship...

Monika Buczak

November 7th, 2000 7:28 AM

Please, please, please fix these standards-compliance bugs before releasing Navigator 6.0. It is already much too difficult to create pages that work properly on all of the major browsers. Once Navigator 6.0 is released with bugs, there's no going back -- there will always be users out there who haven't upgraded to the dot release.

Steve Newman

November 7th, 2000 7:28 AM

Please Comply with the Standards First before anything else.

Aren't you people are still in Karma hell for the blink tag? Get a little karma and comply so the rest of the world can start building pages without double-coding EVERYTHING!

James Ellis

November 7th, 2000 7:28 AM

Netscape, Please don't embarass yourselves. Release a great browser a little late, not an ok one punctually. I know of many developers who are waiting to laugh at you when you make your NN6 release. Give them pause not reasons!

Chris Kankel

November 7th, 2000 7:27 AM

I agree completely with Mr. Champeon's statement. I can't say it better. Please adhear to standards.

Kurt Schlatzer

November 7th, 2000 7:19 AM

Netscape, I urge you to delay the release of a browser known to contain serious standards compliance holes and other bugs, until such bugs and failures to comply are fixed. Surely you understand that by alienating the folks who develop for your platform, you risk your audience's ability to view the content you wish to deliver.

Steven Champeon

November 7th, 2000 7:19 AM

As a web developer and ad-hoc IT person, I'm enormously disappointed in this rush to get NN6 out the door. My only consolation is that neither of the businesses I work with will likely be installing NN6 as anyone's default browser. Everyone I work with is basically happy with IE5, and, given Mr. Flanagan's review of NN6, I see no reason to force any of my co-workers to switch from one faulty browser to another.

Andrew Ortolano

November 7th, 2000 7:17 AM

If NS fail to brig us the strongest standard compliant browser alive, they will yet again get behind in their race for popularity.

WE DEVELOPPERS DON'T WANT TO WAIT FOR NS6.1 TO START CODING!!!

Fran�ois St-Maurice

November 7th, 2000 7:16 AM

As a Web Developer, I am very aware of the flaws with the current release of Netscape. Were it up to me, I would choose to no longer support Netscape. Having to comply with Netscape's flaws severely limits my work. With the release of Netscape 6, I hope for an industry-wide ultimatum: we, the Developers, will support a standards-compliant browser, nothing less. If Netscape 6 is found to be non-compliant, it will be no longer supported by any developer. The diminishing percentage of market share that Netscape still owns will be ignored until it is gone.

David Woods

November 7th, 2000 7:13 AM

Remember all the excitement when Mozilla was pledged to be the first fully standards-compliant browser? Remember how angry we all were when IE release after release failed to address concerns of web developers, users, standards committies? Why am I getting a sense of deja vue here?

This child of OpenSource -- first darling, then something that our opponents kept using as an example of a failure of an OpenSource approach -- where is it going? How long has it been in the making? Long enough that marketing folks has gotten all too uptight and really want to ship, no matter what...

Andrei Popov

November 7th, 2000 7:13 AM

As you can see from my comment below, my HTML coding skills have been daunted by my inability to program correctly. Don't make the same mistake I did Netscape! :)

Jason Martinetti

November 7th, 2000 7:11 AM

Thank you Netscape for giving me one more reason to recommend Internet Explorer to my clients!

Jeremy

November 7th, 2000 7:10 AM

The poor level of support for standards highlighted here will only serve to marginalize Netscape even more. Quality is important and NS 6.0 MUST surpass the version 4 series browsers if it is to gain any significant user base. Certainly my own experiences with the buggy and bloated mozilla beta releases make me want to stick with NS4.7x for browsing and find other solutions for email.

Exchanging one set of problems for another is *not* an improvement

Blaine Horrocks

November 7th, 2000 7:10 AM

Not complying with established standards is simply stupid. Standards are produced, reviewed and implemented to make developement and use of a language/tool more universal. To deny or to fail to implement accepted standards will not enhance the N6 product, but will more likely reduce even furthur the community of users writing pages for or implementing N6. It is unfortunate that I have been required to choose between browsers due to a lack of standards support in the NS* browsers.

Dr Mike Way

November 7th, 2000 7:09 AM

Dear AOL/Netscape,

Compliance with open standards is the one show stopper feature that Netscape6 has the opportunity to provide. Technical users and developers are concearned about these issues and their recommendations have weight with less technical users. Do not discount the trickle down effect.

IE will likely never comply with open standards but, despite currently high market share, in an open world they will never survive.

Play by the rules and you will win.

I would wait another year for standards compliance. Good things take time.

Don't give up, fix it!

Thom Farrell

November 7th, 2000 7:09 AM

I can't say much really because I am so stupified as to why, after all this time, Netscape 6 still won't be 100% (or at least close to being) standards compliant. I've been a die-hard Netscape user for years and have been developing for almost as long. I can't stand having to develop for multi-browsers, and though I might have to for IE and their ever-changing feature set, knowing I can write in 100% HTML4 would ... well, just make sense after so long.

From the top:
The following tags are permitted: <A> <li> <ol> <ul> 

I hope this isn't v6's only supported tags!!

Jason Martinetti

Jason Martinetti

November 7th, 2000 7:08 AM

AOL/Netscape, I beg you to delay your version until the mozilla version is ready. If you are planning to fork it now, it is suicide for your browser.
Please fix your compatibility issues and then release your delayed product.
A delay is better than a poor product. Thanks!

Brian Z

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