Reader Comments -- Netscape Navigator 6.0 to Fail Standards Compliance

Your 1,307 Responses...

s. Books on various programming languages, web technologies and operating systems.

How does one choose the right books, though? Well, you can start by elminating any books by O'Reilly as potential purchases. If they condone this type of nonsense, then who knows what kind of tripe you're going to find in their books?

Thank you, David, for making the choice that much clearer.

P.S. Anyone care to guess which browser I'm using to post this message? :>

A Logical Guy

Why would someone change from an earlier version of NS if version 6 is not standards compliant? NS 4.x doesn't meet the standards either, so one may as well stick with a 4.x version or use Mozilla, with it's more up-to-date patches.



The world's already waited 2 years, what's another couple of weeks?

Colin Kershaw

As someone who has preferred Netscape for years, now I feel they
should just pack it in or write utilities for IE. Let IE handle
compliance, so us web developers can get it right the first time.

John Ralston

Netscape 6 is not prepared to defend itself as a non-beta browser. There are simply too many issues that have been ignored. Please AOL, get a clue!

Snicker

This is absolutely pathetic. Netscape has yet to produce a decent browser that is compliant with the set standards. As a developer, I'm getting sick of having to develop for such a horrible piece of software. Wouldn't the world just be better if we rid ourselves of Netscape? (:

Pete Gullekson

i'm just a lowly web developer who wants a single set of standards to conform to :(

syberchic

This is not complicated... Either make 6.0 standards compliant or plan to get out of the market!


Just think what could be done if every developer on the planet didn't have to spent countless hours trying to adjust their code to make it "cross browser" compatible.


It is amazing that anyone uses Netscape at all now... If you screw this up, it will be amazing to find anyone who even remembers what Netscape was.

D.C. Developer

NN 6.0, in addition to exhibiting numerous JavaScript mishandling problems, has an anomaly demonstrated at app start-up. 90% of the time on my NT 4.0 SP6a machine the process starts, but the app GUI does not. Have seen a similar problem reported on the Bugzilla site.

It's a shame AOL felt it had to release this bugware as I like what appears to be a better GUI from the usability/aesthetics standpoint. Of course AOL inflicts 25 million users with its (most often buggy) proprietary internet s/w, so why am I not surprised?

Put it back in the garage until it runs without stalling and backfiring like my old 1962 Falcon.

Michael Shaw

What is with the fonts ? Why does Netscape 6 show the default font as a whole point lower ? Netscape 4.7 does not show this. Neither does IE 4.x/5.x ... Its a nice browser ... but still many NOTICEABLE bugs ...

At least Microsoft is good at hiding their bugs!

Jaroslaw Popowicz

Well, I am using Netscape 6 and IE5.5 , and I have to say that Netscape is a lot faster at downloading pages. If they can get things a little more stable, I am using that rather than IE?

Question: Why does Netscape display pages so good and so fast? Compared to IE? Is there some setting adjustments you can give me so I can use IE, and still get fast results? (ie, cache, advanced settings)

Rob L

It's Alpha quality. It failed my basic test suite, it wasn't even worth trying anything advanced.

PLEASE don't hand it to Microsoft on a plate like this!

David Stevenson

i've been a web developer since 1993 and ever since internet explorer version 4.01 was launch, it made netscape looks worst then dirt.

for the past 4 years, i've converted every person (that's a web desinger / developer) to see that IE is a much better browser to develop & design a website with. and for those who want to see how i challenge others, drop me an email... i'm more then willing to show you.

for many versions come and gone, netscape had never handle simple table width/height % or px the logical way or should i say the proper way... a 100% width of a table should suggest the size of the window being displayed, and if i were to create another table within it and add a few cell with different %, it should logically be calculated from the parent table width in pixel, but no... that's not the case, everything looks like hell! but that's how we the users... the human thinks math wise. do correct me if i'm wrong. and even Netscape 6 full release still does it... if you don't believe me, try it on your own! if you don't know how to do it, email me and i'll show you! but think about that, that's just the simpliest and mostly used on websites.

every good developer or designer i know says that netscape should just dump the entire project down the dumps. its a waist of our time, and money to make website compliant to a browser that really reaks... our stress level are high because trying to make the sites complient and look good on netscape also. its literary creating a hell for us.

when we the designers and developers has a get togather, we joke and play down netscape like no bodies' business. frankly speaking, that's not good at all, not at all. plus, most people i know that like netscape, and the reason behind that its because they will have nothing to do with Microsoft, but even them... they're switching back to ie because they're tired of netscape.

just a note mr. netscape... even my mom likes IE more. that's really sad. pull your socks up, and shape up people!

hanns

hanns chong

If you compare Netscape 6 with Internet Explorer 5.5 you will see that Netscape follows almost perfectly follows the current HTML and CSS standards while IE fails in several ways. Just take a look at W3C's CSS test suite at http://www.w3.org/Style/CSS/Test/

Martin Vollrathson

I am completely disappointed in Netscape and its failure to adhere to its own open-source program. Please, implement the Mozilla fixes; don't make the mistake of releasing an unfinished product. Hurried short term gains make for long term failures.

Dan Smith

Daniel V Smith

I have struggled with Netscape compatibilty for good long time now. Since my site isn't a business or major e-commmerce site, I finally given up on trying to achive this - why should I write my code twice??

I hope other will follow this, maybe then something will be done about it - I notify visitors to my site with a pop-up that since they are using netscape, they will not be viewin gthe site as it is intended to be viewed and from that point on, I totally disregard Netscape compatibility in my pages.

I learned CSS from the W3C documentation, so I learned it according to standards - netscape's implementation of that has been partial, at best.

Maybe if people realized that all of a sudden, websites look like crap in NS, they will quit using it and force NS to actually conform to the standards.

And what is with NS6 taking 2 full minutes to load after launching? _ I guess that should be addressed in another story....

Eric Schuler

I think netscape should look more at the consequinces of releasing an unstable product. Microsoft who seems to have done a fairly good job with IE will continue to take the majority of users. Netscape needs to learn that in order for their browser to make it, they have to built a quality stable product.

Seth Novosel

To Netscape- FIX THE COMPLIANCE BUGS NOW

We just had a huge discussion on Netscape 6 in the Cooker (development) mailing list for Linux-Mandrake.

The general feeling is Netscape 6 is too buggy to include in the distribution and Mandrake should stick with 4.7X- Strike One

I have built several systems for other people and installed Netscape 4.7X and will continue to do so until the COMPLIANCE bugs are fixed. So are other computer builders- Strike Two

Web developers and embedded system builders will be looking at how well Netscape 6 handles the standards since evem IE 5.5 doesn't follow all of them. They will more than likely base their decisions on what browser to choose from thecompliance and stability of the product. NS6 has problems in both areas.- Strike Three

The way to take back a share of the market is to release a SUPERIOR product, not a buggy product. This apparently is not Netscapes philosophy- Game Over

Alternate OSes. KDE Konqueror is starting to shape up nicely. Once plug-in developers adapt their code to run under Konqueror, Netscape will be dropped by most Linux users. Why? a lack of standards compliance and too many bugs.

Sam Walker

I am a long time Netscape fan. And I have used beta browsers in the past. But this is the first time I have ever used a NS beta version 3 that was a dissapointment. I tried to use it just for browsing the web in general. But I deleted it from my computer last week because it is too dysfuntional. And I didn't even think about using a beta in this condition to test my web pages. I couldn't believe it when I read the article stating this is ready to release. If this is an indication of what is to come in version 6.0, I'll wait for 6.1, or maybe 6.5. And I definitely will not make any of my sites comply to this garbage.

Bruce Coffman

Iam appalled to note that Netscape is releasing its latest version with lot of Bugs that should have been fixed .Iam a web developer and its is a headache to test the compatibilty in both the the browsers and now this !!!.
Netscape should call it Beta version and they should release the version only after fixing those bugs.

krishnan thulsi doss

Iam appalled to note that Netscape is releasing its latest version with lot of Bugs that should have been fixed .Iam a web developer and its is a headache to test the compatibilty in both the the browsers and now this !!!.
Netscape should call it Beta version and they should release the version only after fixing those bugs.

krishnan thulsi doss

The best thing I can say about Netscape 6 is the speed and cleanliness with which the uninstaller works. In it's present state, the best thing web developers can do to ensure functionality of their sites is to include it in their browser check so as to exclude ver 6.0 from access! At least until Netscape get their act together. Who cares if ver 6.0 looks prettier than earlier versions if it's interpretation of fairly basic web code sucks!

John Hunter

I strongly agree that the release of Navigator 6.0 should be delayed until it is made standards compliant. To release the product with signifcant bugs will only further weaken the product and push users to IE. The process of developing cross browser compatible web pages and applications is difficult enough already. To further complicate the process by allowing known bugs is disastrous.

James C. Johnson III

Netscape, the browser has long been my favorite. I am severely disappointed in the lack of support for open standards. I am dismayed that the organization that defined JavaScript can not even comply in their own product. It is well understood that it takes time to produce a quality product, even more so when it is an "open" movement. IE is already more compliant than existing stable versions of Netscape. As developers, we care more about standards compliance and less about the browsers own look and feel. How could you allow so many resources to be spent customizing the browser, but not the rendering engine? Please put this one back on the drawing board... Let this version be a release candidate and not the final!

Demitrius Nelon

I also strongly agree with David. We had considered standardizing on Netscape when 6.0 was finally released; however, based on this article, we will continue with Explorer until these standards issues are addressed.

Steven Carter

Call me idealistic, but I thought the whole idea and driving force behind the Mozilla project was to develop a more-than-browser, compliant with existing standars and with the capability to adjust to what the future holds.

Being a company, Netscape is of course free to choose the way they want to develop their products, but this sort of behaviour can only result in one thing: that what little hope we held for Netscape in being able to produce any serious competition against IE, is lost.

Miki Wiik

Do it right the first time Netscape! If you know it's broken and you still release it as a final release and not a beta, you will lose what little following you have left.

Sam Morgan

I'm not a microsoft fan, nor a detractor, but here there's no mistake : netscape has no future going this way. Previous versions were already annoying (bloody proprietary layer tag !), but this one isn't even compatible with its own previous versions !
I don't know ONE web developper who likes this browser. If version 6 doesn't make up for all this, IE will definitely becomes the only browser. And maybe that's a good thing.

Hubert Razack

Netscape is one of the last firewall against Microsoft IE. If Netscape fails, it is the open road for Microsoft absolut monopoly. I am a developper for a big firm in mobile phone and I know that it is sometimes hard to make even minor changes approved. But if our phones don't met required standards compatibility, they are simply not sold. It is exactly the same for Netscape: with some much incompatibility, nobody would use it and so all the work done is of no use.

Please, fix the bug !

DI MERCURIO Sébastien

DHTML doesn't work in netscape 6.
Even dreamweaver cross-browser code.

I've been surfing 3 DHTML sites with netscape 6 final release and none of them worked. I assume it's because of the layer syntax incompatibility.
This is the most visible bug of netscape and it will crash netscape's reputation for sure.

Alban Cousinié

This has been ridiculous from the onset. How many hours have been lost trying to get cross-compatibility? When we are finally close to resolution, there are still basic incompatibilities. Admittedly, Microsoft still has some bugs on their end, but wow, what an incredible blunder Netscape. I memory leaked till it crashed my system, just leaving your browser open to a blank page! Maybe the leveraging of the lawsuit against Microsoft really does show their inability to compete in an innovative market.

Mark Jenkins

Do What Is Right...

Daniel V. Payer

This is Netscape's last chance to capture any browser market-share. I am happily using IE5 for Mac (as well as iCab and OmniWeb). I will refuse to use (and actively support) and so-called "standards-compliant" browser that is deficient in so many ways. IE5 at least tries harder.

Joshua Jabbour

I'm pleased to add my name to those asking Netscape to hold off until they have a truly standards-compliant browser.

What worries me the most is the prospect that the window for real standards compliance could well be closing. As Explorer gains market dominance, the incentive for Microsoft to steer clear of proprietary standards drops. We can't be too far now from the point where Redmond can simply tell the development community the standard is Explorer -- take it or leave it.

Netscape, you have an opportunity here that is very rare in the world of software development: the chance to genuinely get it right. I hope you'll take it.

Rob Cottingham

ftp://ftp.netscape.com/pub/netscape6/



Final version of Netscape 6 is out on there FTP site ........

As well as themes and such

Rob L

If netscape doesn't become compliant, any dreamed of market share will be lost.
As a designer myself, I'm tired of having to "rig" code so that it will look the same (or pretty close to it) in IE and Netscape. I'm getting to the point of not even wanting to bother making it look right in Netscape if it isn't a business project.
Standards are set for a reason! The idea is to come closer, not further away!

Brian

Netscape sucks - deal with it...

Oscar Jacobsson

Last chance Netscape. Release a standards-compliant browser or be forever forgotten...

Már Örlygsson

Lets join hands and welcome the Netscape six to the world - out of date hippy browser - can't you just conform your code



I think I'll sue for mental anguish.



Here’s a good idea, lets royally screw every corporate site that has been pain stakingly developed to be cross compatible with past versions of Netscape.




I think it's time the developing community has a public voice. I'm sure it would make an interesting headline. I'm sure alot of people will have some interesting opinions.

Luke Hansen

I knew there was a reason I never liked Netscape, and this just adds fuel to the fire. How awful-what are they thinking?! There are a billion web pages out there, and recoding is not an option: a better browser is.

Kimi B.

Here's one I hadn't encountered before...

Per ECMA 262, typeof should only return "function" if the object is native and implements a .call() method (printed page 47-48; PDF page 58-59). Regular expressions are a native object type and do not implement a call method. Therefore, this JavaScript URL:

<a href="javascript:alert(typeof(/regExp/));">
   javascript:alert(typeof(/regExp/));</a>

Dave Brown

We are not going to take on the cost of re-coding all of our sites just because Nescape can't get it right. We are NOT going to develop for this browser or support it until a corrected version is released. I never thought I'd be happier using IE, yet here I am. I've tried the preview versions and I could care less if it's more compliant if even the simple Javascript/DTML won't work!

Jonathan Avedikian

We demand a recount!

And yes, what they said. We will also not support Netscape 6. So why would people download it and use it if they know the site they want to see won't look or function correctly? And yes, the people will know! Justice!

CRC

Flanagan,
You know, I know, and hundreds of other geeks know that this browser is the most standards complient browser out their. You make it sound as if this browser is powered by a 1972 Chevy hooptie, which it is not. Yes it will probably ship with some bugs come 6.0, however lets look at the options we are faced with... 1) Leave Netscape 4.x on the market and keep developing for that 'thing' or 2) release Netscape 6, an extremely standards complient browser.

Pat

I don't suppose you'll listen to the people that could make Netscape 6 a great browser.
Maybe when everyone has left you, you can sit around and tell yourself you did the right thing by ignoring those people.
Please get it right.

Miles Underwood

After trying Netscape 6 for about 2 weeks all I can say is I'm sickened beyond belief. It is so apparent that AOL's agenda is ruining Netscape even more. All this added crap that we don't want like AOL Instant Messanger and an AOL desktop icon, ooo i don't get enough of those from ICQ and Winamp??? This is the final straw...outside of windows there is very little choice for a good browser...and with microsoft setting more and more proprietory "standards" it's gonna just get harder and harder to compete with IE. I can only hope that microsoft is broken up into the crap that it is..

Christopher Hylarides

Please wait and fix these issues. We already have a perfectly good non-compliant browser (IE) so we're in NO HURRY to get another. On the other hand, there will be ENOURMOUS developer support for Netscape 6 if you resolve these issues!

Paul Tetley

Do it right!

Yes, it's late. So, keep in mind why we use Netscape - not just because we hate Microsoft. We are loyal to the Browser who's compliance with existing standards, consistency across platforms, and technical innovation were not at the cost of selling ourselves to a proprietary product. We need to see a product that is standards compliant - not just more so than IE!

Roy Staples

Netscape Navigator 6.0 is the last bulwark against the degenerate Microsoft monopoly. Don't screw it up by making it noncompliant with Web standards.

Joseph T. Sinclair

I agree. I hope NS follows Flannegan's reccomendations before relasing NS 6.

A sloppy release will just make it harder to hold on to the few web developers who still support NS at all.

Lets not forget LDAP either.

Steve

I am tired of waiting for Netscape 6, but I am willing to wait longer for a Netscape 6 that is up to the standars as NS has been advertising.

Netscape will take a big risk if they release Netscape 6 and it isn't mostly perfect in this respect.

There are a *LOT* of web developers out there who are frustrated with Netscape. Many have given up caring whether or not their apps work in Netscape in addition to working in IE.

The ones who do support NS are dangling on a wire that might be broken if NS 6 is a pain to program for like NS 4.*.

I would hate to see that happen

Steve

That's really absurd. Does anybody here knows the standards? Does any one here tested Netscape 6? On the one hand you are bashing Netscape because it is 90% standards compliant and praize IE which is compliant only with the M$ proprietary standards.
What we have here with NS6(right now, minus a few bugs) is a working, usable browser thathas far better standards support than any other browser.
Getting it out of the door soon, and of course continuing work on the next minor
version with bugfixes, is more important than having a perfect release. Perfect releases don't happen, ever.

John Baker

Microsoft is currently engaged in an astroturf war against Netscape (it's a given). Is Mr. Flanagan part of it?

Jerry Quinnton

A Netscape with bugs will do nothing but help MS's attempt to dominate the browser market. Give the engineers an extra few weeks to fix these bugs.

Warren Smith

I agree. I will be downloading a new version whenever one is available but most user's will not. It will cause more backlash against Netscape than it will help.

Ray Hopper

I agree. I will be downloading a new version whenever one is available but most user's will not. It will cause more backlash against Netscape than it will help.

Ray Hopper

What? Netscape 6.0 seems kind of useful but with this many bugs that until now i didn't even know about makes me really mad. I'm glad i didn't download it when they had it available for that short time. By the sounds of it, N6 should stay a beta forever.

Brent Roberts

Netscape should be watching out when they post there stuff. It is not ready yet, and I see on www.activewin.com it says that they have released it on there FTP site. Is this correct? I tried it, but it said I do not have permission to view it. Is it coming out Soon?

Rob L.

As a user, the NN6 release will most probably be good enough as it is.
As a developper, I will still long for the day when I will be able to programme an application just by reading the W3C standards, without having to spend hours trying to find why this tag sequence or that piece of code aren't working.
Netscape and Mozilla project programmers are to be commended for their efforts in trying to make a good product.
What is not acceptable, is for AOL/Netscape management to force the release of a product with non-trivial bugs that are known and well documented.

With this release, Netscape is making sure that developpers will not use the NN6 platform for serious development, rendering the whole exercise of using NN6 pointless. We are then left with 'just another browser' against which there are other alternatives, less bloated and as worthy.

nka

CAN WE SAY <BLINK>PUBLICITY STUNT</BLINK>. How lame and stupid is this? Geez....duhh, I have alot of free time on my hands so I'll make crap up and hope I get some attention...duhhh. Read WC3, Netscape 6 is 110% more standard compliant than ANY IE version.

Nick Tomkin

Failing to ship NS 6 as a fully standards compliant browser will enable Microsoft to give the web the final kiss of death via Internet Explorer 6.0 for Windows. That event will probably spell the end of the renaissance of alternative and better operating systems, started by the availability of information and applications on the web.

AOL as the parent company of Netscape Communications must realise this. Shipping NS 6 in spring 2001 while maintaining a high degree of standards compliance are IMHO far more important than shipping before winter 2001.

Since Netscape is no longer a household name, a slightly delayed release will likely have little impact on it's direct marketshare. Developers however will be given a platform far more reliable across operating systems than Microsoft's offerings, an advantage far more valuable in the long run.

Ton van der Liet

Come on guys! If Microsoft did anyhting like this you would be all over it. The fact is Microsoft just deveops better products than Netscrape. It's this kind of thing that caused you to loose the browser war.

David Findley

I use Netscape Navigator because:
1. Internet Explorer is a huge, inefficient, proprietary, insecure mess.
2. Netscape Navigator is available on lots of platforms (including linux.

Anything else they give me is just a bonus. They are far more standards complient than IE and this makes them the better browser.

Waiting 'till 6.1, I'll keep Mozilla for now ;)
Jackson Dunstan

Jackson Dunstan

Hey, Netscape

We're trying to support you guys. But jeez!

Get with it, china's.

Mark von Delft
South Africa

Mark.von.delft

N4 already flopped now they're gonna ensure N6's demise before its released. seems like corporate suicide to me

nathan smith

This petition is lame. If Netscape releases a product that doesn't work, they'll crash and burn (unlike Microsoft's leeway as a corporate giant who can afford mistakes, Netscape cannot expect people to forgive a buggy product). If the product works and people are happy, then it's all well and good. Your little petition means absolutely nothing. Man, you're an idiot.

Brent

It's bad enough that N4 has degenerated into a steaming pile of doo, but why are you wasting your one chance at salvation by release N6 as a larger steaming pile of doo? The standards are not new and you SHOULD have no issue being compliant with them. WAKE UP! Your users are running out the door as it is. You don't need to chase them with a stick to make them leave faster.

Donna Williams

It is a shame that after a 2 1/2 year wait, Netscape didn't see fit to delay just another 2-3 months and get bug fixes for these in.

We're going to be recommending to all of our customers to wait until 6.1 or just use the latest stable Mozilla build.

- Bill Edney

William J. Edney

Put simply, my company will not support Netscape 6 in any form until the browser complies with DOM-0 and ECMA-262 standards that have been public for years.

Scott Shattuck

Netscape 6.0 isn't fully standards-compliant, but it's definately more compliant than anything else on the market right now. If you want to petition for compliance, you've got more immediate targets in IE, iCab, Neoplanet, etc...

Target

I am not a technician, I am just a loyal netscape user. Mainly I prefer Netscape's structured Bookmarks system to IE's alphabectic long lists.

Re Netscape 6, I say: take your time and get it right. If you don't, I'm going over to IE next round. I will be sorry to do it, but I will do it.

Sidney Lovas

Netscape, get with it! Standards are GOOD. Standards make us web developers want to write for your browser. As is, I have to write different code for IE and NS.

Comply with standards. Stop polluting the internet with the junk you've been giving us.

Jeff

I am a long time user of the internet, and as a result, I am a long time
user of Netscape. I'm still using the buggy Netscape 4.7 series because
it doesn't contain the ghastly security problems that plague IE. I am
at my wits end, I have just about converted over to IE because Netscape
is so buggy, and for what I hear, 6.0 is going to be no less buggy than
4.7

This makes me very sad. Mostly because this will now force the complete
transition to IE as "the browser". Web sites will no longer support
standards, they will support IE. This will give Microsoft the monopoly
in web browsing, and allow them to force any junk down peoples throats.

I have an impassioned plea to the Netscape developers. Make this browser
work properly. Support all the standards correctly. Make this a browser
that you would be proud to add your own personal name to. If you don't
do this, you, and you alone are allowing Microsoft to gain the position
they have desired, and do not deserve, which is the controller of the
content on the internet.

Jon Eaves

This is a far more serious issue for a web browser than it would be for another application. A developer in one of the mozilla bugs mentioned tongue-in-cheek that this might encourage developers to abandon Netscape for Mozilla. Unfortunately, most of the time, it isn't that simple.

Internet developers (as opposed to intranet or application developers) have no control over the browsers that users choose. However, they are typically forced to support the popular browsers that are out there. With DHTML, this often means working around existing bugs (such as the numerous bugs for Mac IE 5.0). It now looks like Netscape 6 adds yet another really f***-ed up browser to the mix (I don't know how else to phrase it).

Some users may get frustrated with web pages that don't work and may upgrade. However, most will instead blame websites for not writing compatible code!! QA departments will also complain to developers for not writing compatible code. The end result, developers who may currently like Netscape will become VERY upset with Netscape. It's not just that developers may switch to using Mozilla themselves (or use it when developing non-Internet solutions), they'll still have to support Netscape 6 on their sites!

Netscape is ensuring that there is not only bad will towards it, but that this bad will continues for a long time (until everyone moves off 6.0). Most users don't upgrade for minor releases.

We waited and waited and waited for a new version of Netscape, all the while receiving promises that it would be standards-compliant and stable. We could have waited another month. It wouldn't have made ANY difference. Instead, you blew the faith we had in you. So much for your remaining marketshare...

Scott Guelich

I am a simple user, not a developer. However, as my logs probably show, I use explorer more and more when I am in Windows. My reason is very simple - explorer manages to open sites easily that fail in Netscape (and sometimes Linux mozilla). I have simply grown tired of opening pages which don't work, even though I do not like Microsoft. Netscape does not only need to support standards, but also the common, botched standard (Microsoft) web pages. If they don't support all (or almost all) web pages, I will not use them. It is not a matter of principle, my principles urge me to use Netscape, but a matter of convinence.
Netscape must support all web pages or even its fans will stop using it.

Uri David Akavia

You bastards! I was really excited at the prospect of building an entire web-application based around the Netscape 6.0 browser, and now this. How frickin' typical.

I keep joking with friends about throwing bricks through Netscape's window on my drive home... perhaps that's the only way you guys can get the message - if it hits you in the forehead and causes you to bleed. Sheesh.

Get with it, or get out of the browser biz.

Sam Bennett

We're getting closer to standards compliance with Netscape 6.0 but we're obviously not there yet. In my 4 1/2 years of web development, I have become an "expert" on the differences in browsers and the various versions of each browser and their bugs. This has greatly increased the amount of time and effort that it takes to create a good product and my clients are the people who end up paying for this.

This release simply means that the frustrations continue and that I will have to continue to research browser quirks instead of being able to focus all of my attention upon good user-interface design and content delivery.

Michael Gronwold

Please take the extra time to bring Navigator 6 up to full standards compliance. Become the flagship again by releasing the best product you can release, even if it takes a little longer. The Web development community is willing to wait.

Scott Bynum

I've lost so much time lately adjusting webpages and making hack workarounds for the Netscape browser that I'm seriously considering sueing AOL/Netscape to make up for it.

Mark Thorne

AOL/Netscape: The flames of Microsoft's burning dominance fill your nostrils and you still waste time and energy in the wrong places with the wrong goals. Please, please, get your heads on straight! Get Netcsape 6 right or don't get it at all. It's better to be late with a quality product than to distribute broken and non-compliant code to the world on time!

Todd Hammer

I have been patiently awaiting this product (Netscape 6.0) for years. I am a web developer, and understand the importance of standards compliance. I already have to manage the differences between Netscape 4.7x and IE 5.x, and the last new platform I want to develop for is "the standard." I am going to be pissed off if now I have to account for Netscape 4.7x, Netscape 6.0, IE 5.x, and then "the standard" on top of that.

We've already seen the result of non-standards-compliance. PLEASE do not do the same thing, again.

Jeff K. Hoffman

The bugs they refuse to remove in Netscape 6, could result in web sites not using the affected features. This is a bad thing! I use netscape 4.x in Linux because it's the only browser with Java and Flash support, but it's so unstable I will switch it with the first alternative I get. Is this the way Netscape are going to win the browser wars? I don't think so!

Mgne P Zachrisen

Dear Netscape: The only way for you to remain relevant is to follow standards precisely. I write ECMA/DOM/CSS-compliant code as a base and am willing to test for and special-case dominant browsers which might fail to meet operate under that standard. But our web logs say there's no reason to support your browser in this way.

Dave Brown

I will not develop for Netscape 6.0, nor will I recommend the browser to others until it complies with standards!
Slava Mikerin
Developer

Slava Mikerin

Only if we have a browser that we can depend on, that we can learn once and then take for granted, can we spend our thought and creativity on the messages we are sharing through the web. Please help us do this by creating a stable, robust, and standard-setting (by adhering to the published standards) product. I've waited years for it; I will wait a little longer. People like me are your best hope for immortality anyway.

Ann Marie Thomas

Do it right the first time. It's always the right policy. Especially since this may be netscape's last chance.

Spencer Proffit

Netscape is already three years late in release, and nothing it can do will ever regain the market share it once had. Only those truly devoted fans will go to it: the average user, who gets IE preinstalled, will simply decline to go through the upgrade and install bit because he doesn't want to be bothered.

AOL could have adopted Netscape since they own a sizeable chunk of the company but have so far failed to do so.

In other words, what's the rush to get a new version out? Unless it offers substantial advantage over IE --- and I don't see that happening as long as there's ice at the South Pole --- nothing Netscape does is going to change the market.

But, if they release a bad, buggy non-standard version, they will risk alienating the few remaining users like they have now.

SO WHY NOT HOLD OFF AND GET IT RIGHT? WHAT'S ANOTHER THREE MONTHS COMPARED TO THREE YEARS?

I fail to understand the rush simply to get something out; unless, of course, the Microsoft practice of using the world as the beta-test site has now become the dominant paradigm for software engineering.

So I ask that Netscape hold off, and release a version that does what it advertises, and does it right the first time.

I've waited three years: I can wait a little longer.

And to be perfectly blunt: if the next version of Netscape is not right, I will probably go to Opera, even if it means paying for it.

J. Baltz

J. Baltz

Standards compliance is of the utmost importance to me in a browser.

If Netscape 6 is released with so many standards-compliance bugs, I will not adopt it, I will not develop to it, I will recommend against it on any occasion. And I know that many other developers, power users, and opinion leaders on the Web feel just the same way as I do regarding this.

If Netscape is looking for a way to die in the marketplace, then classifying standards compliance bugs as anything lower than a must-fix is an excellent attempt. Just the backlash in public-relations terms will see to that. Pity that it wastes what might have been an excellent chance to slaughter Microsoft instead (as MS richly deserves, no less for their fudging of standards-issues!).

Alex Martelli

I will not develop to yet another browsers arbitrary subset of the W3C standards. If Mozilla/NS6 does not fully and correctly support the standards it will fail. Simple as that. If it does, then developers will love it. IE nearly manages it, but not quite.

I am not confident. Many of my web sites (which work fine under IE and NS4) seem to crumble under current milestones - and there seems to be little changing in core rendering stuff. They are just fixing bugs in the interface now (although i have to say that M18 is a HUGE improvement over previous versions). I know I should submit bugs to bugzilla, but I don't have the time.

Jim Moores

I already develop primiarlly toward IE, because most of my intranet apps are used by shops which use MS products as standards.

If Netscape refuses to comply to the published standards, then it is one step backward for Netscape and one step forward toward accepting IE as a "standard" platform (as much as I hate that). One wants to use a browser that doesn't seem to implement features capriciously...

In a rush to "get something out" you loose sight of reliabilty... Customers (clients) can understand a "beta" that doesn't completely comply, but not a final product...

Stephen McConnell

One thing is clear to me: if Netscape wants to take back the ground they've lost to IE, they have to came out with a damn good product. It's not easy to beat Microsoft in usability or system integration terms, so the strong points for Netscape (and, for that matter, for all IE opponents) would be standard compliance and overall quality of the product. Ah, and cross-platform coverage... but this might not be a very important factor - the truth is that the battle will take place on Microsoft platforms, since users on other platform (Linux, Solaris, ...) will almost surely use Mozilla or platform specific browsers.
The request in quality for Netscape 6 is accentuated by their decision to put their product in the Open Source field - yes, the source is opened to everyone, but so are the bugs and all the problems of the product. Developing an Open Sourced project is not the same as developing a close source project - and Netscape has to realize that. I don't doubt Microsoft has the same problems with deadlines and the such, but they are not public (you can see this by comparing succesive versions of IE, such as 5.0, 5.01, 5.5 ...). And that's a big advantage, since if their product is buggy, nobody really knows it...
The fact is that if Netscape comes out with an unfinished and not close-to-perfection product, they don't stand a chance... Because all the bugs would be wide open to everyone to read about. Maybe they think there aren't many people looking in bugzilla for such things... I think they would be wrong, because if one person reads about the bugs and standad non-compliances, he/she would be capable to easily spread the word... and that would be the end for Netscape, . Not to mention web developers - they would surely came upon all those imperfections, and that might be just too much for them... since they already have too many browsers and versions to deal with. And not to mention Microsoft - my guess is they might lead a very adressive campaign if they feel their browser position is threatened, and every weakness in Netscape's product will be exploited.
The bottom line is that this is Netscape's last chance as a company, and if they don't bring a quasi-perfect product on the market, they're doomed...

Cotyso Bodea

I dont use netscape anymore - but if Netscape 6 is good I'll use it again and gladly. I design webpages and the bugs still in Netscape6 PR3 are not making it easier. Do it good, you won't get me using Netscape 6 if it's full of bugs.
break a leg, Don

Don Crowley

hey, open standards is "interesting".

But please don't rush through debug stage. NS keeps me and everyone who works for me up late at night.

Or how about this next time: make your browser default to being just like IE, if you can, for it is better (imho), and more readily integrated into other third-party apps. Face it, we only deal w/ NS on the level of courtesy and fairness, but it is becoming less and less cost-efficient...

Then, if you think you can do things that ie cannot, have that be added on and optional.

End user satisfaciton w/ your browser is heavily reliant on the developers who need to be able to figure it out w/in reason.

Thanks.

Faith Chiang

I agree with the update of the article. Netscape should not release a 6.0 before it is fully standard compliant.

As a web-developer, I know about the hell and frustration of browsers being slightly different than others. And then I am not talking about extra functionality added on top of the standards, but the implementation of the standards themselves.

And I detest using constructs like 'if (netscape)'.

I would be very pleased if all browser would be standards-compliant, so my nightmare would end.

Aschwin van der Woude

I am a technical manager for a web applications development team. Netscape browsers are absolutely inferior to Microsoft browsers. Netscape browsers suck, and people are finally starting to realize it. The sooner Netscape disappears, the sooner we can have properly behaving online applications which leverage ongoing standards efforts such as XML, XSLT, CSS, and even HTML!

If you can't deliver a decent product, don't deliver one at all (i.e. wake-up Nutscrape).

- Kevin

Kevin Silver

THINK STANDARDS!!!

It is a standard for a reason. So that we who develop can do so using the standards and expect our work to appear and function as we developed it.

I am so tired of doing work and then viewing it in NetTrash (Netscape) only to find text and Pictures everywhere except where I put them. Tables....Netscape.....HA HA HA HA HA.

Please focus on the standards issue. IT IS IMPORTANT.

David Hartsock

Isn't anyone paying attention nowadays? Netscape 6 is a netscape-badged version of Mozilla, a laudable open-source browser looking to become fully standards-compliant when the final version is released.

Netscape 6 has not been released yet. This is a preview we are talking about. Yes it has bugs, but i can't think of any ie release that didn't have bugs.

Perhaps Netscape is hurrying their release a little bit, but that doesn't mean we should say that it will fail standards compliance yet. IE itself is hardly w3c compliant in all respects, and if i want a web page to look good on ie, i have to to introduce quirks in the code to fit ie, which won't work on any other browser like netscape 4.x, opera, konquerer or even gecko.

No its not perfect, and no I don't think I will use Netscape 6 as my primary browser yet, but I will use mozilla (post netscape-release) and i know that their roadmap will look into all these details that you are lambasting them for.

All the best to the open-source effort. Long live Mozilla, and lets have a little less crap about lack of standards compliance.

Aditya Sengupta

As an outside Mozilla developer (working on accessibility of the project), I think Mozilla uses one of the coolest internal structures I have ever seen. However, something can be neat and useful, but if no one knows about it all the usefulness is lost.

We have to blame but ourselves for bad outreach. People outside the world who log on to our main Mozilla websites see a disconnected mass of information. We've simply done a poor job of describing what this beast can do!

With Mozilla, the user interface is the document. Everything is built on XML, CSS, DOM and Javascript. So not only is the web content inside the window based on standards, but the content outside the content window. Wow. If I was a company stuck in Win32, like Sonic Foundry, and I saw Linux, OS X and the TV platforms on the horizon I would want my software to be redigned using an OS-neutral, language-neutral platform. XUL is powerful enought to do that, and nothing before has. As cool as Konqueror is, it isn't cross platform. As cool as Swing is, it's not a standard or truly open source. XML, Javascript CSS & DOM are, and the engine running them all is open source, with a choice of licenses!

It's no wonder people don't understand - how can they when no vision has been put forth in any official place. We need to decide what the vision is, and implement the necessary connection to the public instead of expecting them to dig for it all. The better we are at teaching about Mozilla's true power, the more support and postiviteness we'll get.

Certain design decisions have been inadequately explained. I doubt people who complain about XUL being fluff understand the true potential here.

Finger pointing time is over. Let's work to show the world how awesome Mozilla is.

Aaron Leventhal

What the hell?... They are just crippling Netscape this way... :-(

Florin Andrei

The most infuriating developement of the internet is the divergence of standards between competing broswers and thier unsupported methods.

I think I speak for everyone when I say.. "you build something that works, and we'll ALL use it"


(i.e. for you schmucks @ Netscape - if you want your market share back, show us that you can surpass IE and we'll flock to you in the billions.)

Graham Robinson

This is scary. We already have a hard time supporting IE and Nav 4. I can see from the bugs listed in this article that we are going to have to jump through even more hoops in order to get our site working on Nav 6 if its released in this state. Please, I already spend enough long nights here at the office. I don't need any more.

Michael Mosier

Please incorporate the bug fixes and please do not release
the product except as a Mozilla 6.0-beta until it is compliant.

Release early and release often but call the spade a spade --
Mozilla is still Beta code.

Thanks.

-- kjh

Konrad J. Hambrick

I've used NS from the first release. Somewhere along the road I gave up surfing with it, simply because using a constantly crashing and freezing browser on the digital highway is as insane as riding on horseback over the Manhattan bridge.

I still use NS for testing purposes, but my standards have allready fallen to: as long as NS shows _anything_ it's good enough. The few NS-users that are left are hardly worth the costs and efforts in developing a site that really looks good with NS.

A release of NS6 that's as buggy as the latest pre-release and doesn't _fully_ supports the standards makes things a lot easier: why bother developing and testing for NS any longer? The last user will move to IE before the end of the year.

Piet de Geus

Thank you for the alternative to MS IE. Hoping to curtail virus infections, we'd like to avoid IE (as we also avoid LookOut ...err... OutLook). IF you can demonstrate Netscape 6 as a safer Browser - you might actually get people to pay a few dollars for each copy. IF you keep the costs low enough, many may buy just to avoid IE viruses and risk Netscape virus attacks.

thanks again,
keep up the good work,
enjoy,
Brandon Fouts
network admin.

Brandon Fouts

It boils down to this: We want to write HTML code once. We don't want to have to probe browsers. We want the browser to run our code so it works as the specification says it should. The specification didn't come out yesterday. Get it right. $0.02.

NoDak Curmudgeon

I think your right. If the bugs you reported realy exist then I beleive netscape should wait to release the product and just Get it Right. Thats the biggest problem of SoftWare today. The coding process gets rushed and released with way too many bugs. Also is Netscape not FREE??? if so, Then why do they care when the product officialy comes out...

Just a peice of my mind,
Westin Shafer

Westin Shafer

If Netscape 6.0 is not standards compliant, I will have to look towards another browser such as Mozilla, to run on my NT and Linux boxen. Currently, I run Netscape on both, but I'm thinking of upgrading when I upgrade to the Linux kernal 2.2.x on my Linux box. I prefer to avoid using IE on my NT box for obvious reasons.

Gavin Flower

Yes, please wait for your product to be stable before releasing it. I know of too many people who want to stick with IE now. Don't give them more reasons to not partake of a browser that supports multiple environments.

Mozilla and Netscape can be a great driving factor if it comes out and functions well. It will just wither and die if it comes out buggy.

Scott Hassel

I have always stuck with Netscape and think it is a product worth designing for. Please Netscape, give us a browser that we can once again use as our main platform in web design and coding... something that all the competitors will have to shoot for when developing their browsers.

Don't rush to release Netscape 6, or at least call it a beta version so that I won't have to worry about maintaining compatibility with a buggy release five years from now. Take the time to get this one right and fix the known bugs!

Chris Z.

Since Netscape has lost almost all of it's market share, I don't really bother to develop for it anymore. It's already a huge pain to make javascripts work in the big two (especially accross different versions) and I'm sure other languages that I haven't used are a pain as well.. Lets hope netscape 6.0 is as stupid as it looks and their percentage dwindles far enough so no one has to worry about accomidating their crappy browser anymore.

Paco Javy

• You need to comply with the STanderds.</LI>
• Comeone!</LI>
  

kiowas72

This is really stupid, it is like going back to those dark days when we had to support both the browsers. As a web developer if netscape want me to support their browser they better be 100% compliant. By releasing a buggy version they may achive there release deadline but will delay everyone else's.

Rukesh Patel

I agree with David Flanagan. Netscape 6 is too important to the future of the web to be trifled with. As a web developer, I am prepared to wait a few more months to get a 100% standards-compliant browser. If Netscape is looking for support from the market before making such a decision, treat this as my contribution.

Years later, people will forget how late you shipped, but they will not forget if your released product had bugs. Remember Sybase System 10, the buggy "release" from which Sybase never recovered.

Ganesh Prasad

I completely agree: By naming the next release 6.0, Netscape is proclaiming "We have something new and wonderful here", the kind of thing that might make even people who don't normally use netscape say "Well, maybe they got it right this time". If they try it and still don't like it, you can bet they won't be upgrading to 6.1. Please, please, wait untill you have a quality product that won't dissapoint.

Jonathan Wilson

I completely agree: By naming the next release 6.0, Netscape is porclaiming "We have something new and wonderful here", the kind of thing that might make even people who don't normally use netscape say "Well, maybe they got it right this time". If they try it and still don't like it, you can bet they won't be upgrading to 6.1. Please, please, wait untill you have a quality product that won't dissapoint.

Jonathan Wilson

I don't want to loose my faith in Netscape so I agree.

Release it when it's ready. Do it the open source way!

Friedrich Lobenstock

I agree

Kaspar Houser

Best viewed with IE.

David Johnson

I was hoping that Navigator 6 would be the browser that led the way to standards compliance. If Netscape is willingly releasing a product that is not compliant, despite fixes for the problems being readily available, then they are just promoting the current situation -- browsers with separate implementations that need to be taken into account in web applications. Rise above this, and release 6.0 when it's ready!

Scott Hill

I work in a company that builds web apps that need to accomodate both browsers, and even worse yet, both Mac and PC. While some of the bugs listed are not necessarily what one would consider major showstoppers, it's been our experience that we spend a good portion of dev time (estimated at 1/3) making sure the functionality of the web applications is consistent across browsers and platforms.

It's distressing to me as a web programmer to know that amongst all the other tedious issues involved with getting consistent functionality, Netscape is considering to willingly release a version which will cause me to possibly toss one or more bugs on the growing pile of them which will require code work-arounds to make sure that stuff like cell padding doesn't affect our users' experience, depending on which brower they use.

Ibra Bordsen

To the PDT- You should know better!

I would like to use Navigator as my browser but at the moment I just use it for checking that my pages look half decent with it.

Anthony Geoghegan

If NN6 ships with bugs that affect the rendering of pages using standard DHTML/JavaScript practices, its market viability will drop through the floor. Microsoft has had a vastly superior browser for years. The time has come to either fish or cut bait. Releasing a browser that is inferior to IE is suicide.

Brock Jones

As a developer who has been working on the web for years I originally started out with netscape and held out against IE for a long time. Eventually I realised I was only hurting myself and my customers and switched.

After all this time of trying to support this shoddy piece of software I now give up completely. I will not write _any_ code to support netscape again. If people insist on using it and complain about my sites I will explain to them _why_.

As many people have said on here - do it right or don't bother.

Dave Kelly

I have used Netscape since 1994, and have refused to use anything else. I am currently using 4.76. I work for a very large canadian phone company who's entire intranet is based on Netscape communicator.

As of the next release, I will not run a Netscape branded browser if it turns out to be the garbage it is now. And I will gladly recommend my opinion as fact to all.

Thank you

D. C.

There isn't much more to say. It's pretty obvious to me, without true standards compliance, developers will continue to ignore Netscape. Mozilla may live on to some degree, but AOL will effectively destroy the Netscape name brand if they continue on this course.

Chris Felaco

I am so tired of having to write dumbed down code for the people who still cling to their Netscape browser. It was so exciting to think that Netscape was finally going to release a decent browser and allow the field of web development to move forward.

Silly us to believe that.

Carrie Gordon

Could it be that Netscape hasn't noticed that it's number 2 in an essentially 2-horse race? Many developers I know (not necessarily the ones I prefer to work with) don't even consider Netscape important any more and only test in Netscape if required to do so.

Netscape's only hope in remaining viable is to deliver a fully compliant browser after having promised one. Disappointing their market at this point may be, if not suicidal, evidence of having lost the will to live.

Ray Gulick

Could it be that Netscape hasn't noticed that it's number 2 in an essentially 2-horse race? Many developers I know (not necessarily the ones I prefer to work with) don't even consider Netscape important any more and only test in Netscape if required to do so.

Netscape's only hope in remaining viable is to deliver a fully compliant browser after having promising one. Disappointing their market at this point may be, if not suicidal, evidence of having lost the will to live.

Ray Gulick

I would like to say that, as a professional web developer ( dealing specifically with clientside GUI design, javascript, css, dhtml, etc.), I have been consistently frustrated by netscapes history of noncompliance with standards. NS 4 & all subsequent versions thus far are fussy and intolerant of such simple things as the DOM and even little things like adding style attributes to td's that work. Another annoyance is that Netscape, while being one of the driving forces behind javascript, has a browser that is less flexible in it's treatment of said scripting language than microsoft's. That is an embarrassment. Don't go off half cocked, as you have in the past. Make sure NS 6 is compliant with javascript,css,dom,dhtml, and will at least validate xml dtd's BEFORE you release it for public use. Otherwise you will seriously alienate developers like me, eager to take advantage of the latest goodies, and further contribute to my animosity towards your browser. This is one of the few areas I can think of where MS's solution is actually the best.. It is much more flexible and allows much richer manipulation of tags and attributes as well as a more complete object model ( that treats EVERY element as an object that can manipulated ).

-John Mellberg
Web Developer

John Mellberg

As a web developer, I have enough trouble already making sure that my code works the same way, or as close to similar as possible, in the various browsers and versions of browsers that are out there. I've been looking forward to Netscape 6 simply because it has been told to me that many things that IE is capable of will now be possible in Netscape (which means, to a certain degree, less "match up" code for me to do). However, I'm now hearing that Netscape 6 is failing to meet certain standards, which means more coding, debugging, and time for me. Please, please, please do not rush this product!!! It has the potential for greatness, and I'm sure I'm not the only one who would be willing to wait a little longer for a nice, robust product. Thank you.

Kerry Coffman

I am a professional Web Site Developer for a "big dog" company (One that hasn't eaten it in recent months, nor will any time soon) and I am also a graduate student in Human Computer Interaction at DePaul University. I think that I can speak to the need for getting things to the level that they can and should be, but I make no promises on spelling! While I would love to have a browser which is standard and compliant, for my own sanity, there are greater issues. Namely, putting out a product which will begin to raise the level of expectations for consumers about what they should be getting. If half the cars in this country were sold with all of their turn signal levers and various other devices in various places, there would be an outcry. This is nothing less. Let NS and IE augment their browsers cosmetically and with whatever embellishments they wish. If they want to throw in stock tickers and whatnot, that's fine, but please, get the basics to where they should be. The differences should be in what is elective, not in how the browsers fundamentally work.
Thanks,
Sammy

Sam Spicer

PLEASE NOT AGAIN!

I'm not sure if I would describe these Netscape bugs as crippling to my career as a web developer (unlike the shambles that was Netscape v4!) but we have all been waiting a long time for the glory days of cross-browser compatibility and many of us are sick sick sick of writing reams and reams of branching code and finding amazing ways of getting round inadequacies in browser support only to find that it invalidates other areas that were assuredly supported.



Remain true to your programmer's code and make it 100%, not 99% standard.

Ben Caesar

I'm a long-time Netscape user (now on 4.75) and would definitely
prefer to wait a while longer if it would result in a more stable
Rel 6.x product. It is to everyone's benefit to see Netscape once
again viewed as a superior browser.

Steve Kreuzburg

I would like netscape to be as best as it can be. Not because I don't like IE, but |_inuX needs a browser!

andrejoid

As a developer I found it extremely frustrating to conclude that making a website Netscape-compliant takes about as much time as it takes to develop all the ASP, Java, and JavaScript on which most of the sites I build are founded. If Netscape 6 is indeed released as the piece of crap that it is at the moment, I think we'll have to make the decision to let customers know that we won't go through the trouble of building their sites to be Netscape-compatible; and that's a sad thing, as I think I speak for everybody at my company when I say that we all hated to switch to IExplorer several years ago when Netscape became unusable... Everybody here had hoped to be able to start using Netscape again one day, but alas,...

Apparently Netscape has different plans, for nobody in his/her right mind, not even MicroSoft, would release a useless piece of shit like Navigator 6 in it's current state, unless it's all part of a greater scheme...

Yiri T. Kohl

Netscape 6 will be the most standards-compliant browser on the planet when it is finished by any objective measure. I find the headline on this article to be misleading and request that Tim O'Reilly or staff fix it.

Netscape: Please finish Netscape 6. Thank you for listening to the WSP when they encouraged you to move to Gecko. Don't switch now, just before your success.


djo

David Orme

I am working on a browser based site application that has always intended to support IE and Netscape. This will most certainly change that directive.

My work site with over 3500 employees currently lists Netscape as the supported browser of choice. Many have already been working to change to IE.

I've already seen many customer sites switch from a Netscape to IE preference.

A release of 6.0 with this many known and ignored issues should prove to be the final nail in the coffin.

Too bad the paper pushers don't have a clue...

David Card

Do it right, or don't do it at all. As a developer, I have all but given up on worrying about "Netscape Compliance," but I will have major propblems if I have to worry next about "Netscape 4x Compliance," and "Netscape 6 Compliance!"

Jeremy Kane

As of Netscape 6.0 pr3, this software is NOT ready.I am a developer and a user. I have been trying to use Netscape 6 pr1, pr2, pr3 - exclusively. I have purposely limited myself to using this browser and email program. There are web pages that I have sent in that crash the browser or totally lock it up. Software that is crashing regularly should by definition be not ready to ship.

TOMMY COX

I was dismayed to find that NS6 doesn't appear to support the 'true doc'
embedded font technology. Wasn't this something that Netscape came up with
themselves (with Bitstream)? I like Bitstreams 'Web Font Wizard', at least it
worked for me (which is more than I can say for Microsoft's WEFT), I'd probably
buy this software but if it doesn't work with future versions of Netscape why
on earth should I?

David Grant

If the software does not work, it does not matter how soon it gets shipped.
Fix the major issues, or fall to Redmond...

Jeff Lumley

I agree with the article version 2 of Flanagan.

Hope PDT will slip the release date.

a++;

Gilles DUMORTIER

I`m not a friend from microsoft products but IE is for me the better browser, especially in the XML environments. Be aware the standards (W3C) !!!!

Oliver Wick

As a developer who had to deal with the 4.x browser mess of past, I think Netscape lost the browser war not because of Microsoft's abuse, but because Netscape 4.x was so bug ridden that developers gave up on it and pushed corporate clients to abandon it. I'm willing to give Netscape one more chance to get it right. Blow it this time and it's over.

Howard Keziah

First thanks for all the great standards compliance work you have allready done. Second please dont screw it up by leaving gaps, I will not use Netscape if you mess this release up. I know people who are depending on it being 100% standards compliant and are using it as a develpment platform. At the moment they are livid and intend to stop using it if you continue to break the standards in this way.

Andy

Andrew Barnes

Greetings,
Please wait to release a "final" version of Netscape 6 until it meets all the standards of HTML, CSS, Java, XML, and DOM.
One of the reasons that I have been anxiously waiting for Netscape 6 is that it was to adhere to the standards. If it does not do so, I doubt that I will waste my time with it.
Thus far, I have been unable to test any pre-release version of Netscape 6 (except for PR1) as the install has failed on my machine.
Even some of the simplest things seems to still be out of whack (when using a friend's PR2 version). One of the obvious ones is that if you set a cascading style sheet (CSS) to use a large font (say point size 24) for anchored text (as in a hyperlink), the underline is through the text making it look like strikeout text.
PLEASE don't release Netscape 6 if it does not meet the recognized standards.

Brian Bell

It's bad for the web if Microsoft get a browser monopoly. Make Netscape 6 fully standards compliant and as bug-free as possible so that there is an overwhelming reason to use it.

David Leader

I think everyone signing this petition really believed Netscape 6 would be truly standards compliant. In light of the knowledge that you started over from scratch to create a fully compliant browser, "most compliant" is a real let-down.

We all, individually and collectively, would have benefited so much, it is difficult for me to imagine you are about to release a compromised NS6 !

Please consider again holding off on release until your product is truly standards compliant.

Thank you, Steven Dahout

Steven Dahout

Netscape has, and always will be, a third rate product. These are sad times we live in, when an ambitious project can't compete with microsoft.

Sadder still, is that Internet Explorer is a better developed, tighter coded package than netscape may ever be. See what happens when AOL buys things?

Benjamin Kuz

I won't use a lower-quality product and my choice doesn't depend on the version-numeration. I used to use Netscape 1-2 years before but Microsofts IE became better than Netscape, so I started to use both products. At the point of time
as I heard from the "What's related" - snooping, I stopped using Netscape.
AOL is the wrong firm for that product,too, I think , they'll try to take every chance to snoop with their products, and in my eyes they have a humble reputation, like Microsoft.

Arne Wolf Koesling

I think, that this behaviour of Netscape is like Microsoft's. It needs time to correct the mistakes in the main source, when some bugs can be found.

Vojtech Kysela

I'm a web developer for one of the largest Air Force bases outside the United States. I've stuck with Netscape since I got on the web, and have always designed with it in mind, but my duties now require me to design for Internet Explorer as well, since most of our users use it instead.


The biggest pain is having to design for both. I understand that feature bloat happens, but the standards are there for a reason. If you ship Navigator 6 without full standards support, you will lose the few developers you still have.


Please note my opinions are my own, not those of the United States Air Force.

A1C Jeffrey Spaulding

I really need a _good_ browswer, not just some IE-like junk...

Adrian Kollarovics

I won't use this banana-software... It's everybody's own decision, N. is not the only browser.

Dirk Vogel

Think twice ,please!

Richard Waneyvin

Cooooome onnnnnnn.

Patrick Kelleher

Netscape 6.0 should be very, very good not to be overwhelmed by open source Mozilla, which benefits from its open source state. There should be a good browser for all major platforms (Linux, Un*x, Win etc.) and if it's not Netscape, it's Mozilla. So far, Netscape is competition for MSIE, and I pray it remains so.

Ondrej Krajicek

I am an university instructor and use the Web extensively in my teaching. I don't have time to create multiple versions of Web pages or to think up work-arounds for browser bugs which shouldn't exist in the first place. I prefer Netscape just because it seems to be more intuitive to use than IE, and my students seem to have the same preference.

Netscape, my point is this: if you don't fix the bugs, you'll alienate a very important clientile: college professors and students. Nobody wants buggy software: that's part of the reason some consumers dislike Microsoft. Since you already have patches for some of these bugs, for goodness' sake, come to your senses, and implement those patches! As for the rest of the bugs that you do not have patches for yet, we would be willing to wait longer for those to be resolved, too.

Your only weapon against Microsoft is perfection since the Evil Empire seems to have you beat at everything else, including marketing.

F. Vance Neill

As a web developper i'm tired of trying alaways non-compliant tricks to do things in netscape. If netscape 6 gets worse in terms of non-compliance they are toasted.

calixto davila

To the controlling factors in Netscape:

By all means, release a robust browser.
Your supporters have placed a lot of faith into
the work of Mozilla and the principles it represents.

Mass distribution of a bug-ridden browser which fails
to raise the bar in compliance will set Netscape far
behind Internet Explorer.

With the weak foundation of 4.6x, Mozilla is truly
the last hope of competitive browser technology.

With the underperformance of the PR1 and PR2 releases,
the official release -- whenever that may come -- must
be a STRONG showing. Stable to the end-users and
inviting to developers.


-- Eric J. Bragger

Eric Bragger

netscape, you guys are idiots if you do not produce a standards complient browser! that is your ONLY hope to fight microsoft and stay alive. otherwise, i might as well use IE, and so will everyone else.

kevin walchko

Indeed, we have waited a long time for this release.

So long that, indeed, it is well worth now going the extra mile and waiting for
a finished product from Netscape.

Navigator 4.5+ had a lot of bugs. Too many bugs for a non-beta product. I have personally programmed this browser for over a year and see how much better the product from Microsoft is in almost every category, in quantum terms.

Please do not do this to us again. We are tired of it.

Please make the next release of Netscape6 a beta and wait to finish the job.

-Thanks,
Chris Balz.

Christopher M. Balz

Netscape is being put to a painful, public death.

Mike Brown

Common now:

You've got the wrong focus. Stop being a tunnel-visioned manager and look around. You're focus should be on product correctness not on meeting a deadline. The world is not going to end if you don't meet the deadline. It will end if you put out a product that does not work correctly.

Michael LoJacono

Corporate arrogance and blatant marketing stupididy appears to be NNs project development team's modus operandi. I don't understand it.

All I can do is echo the majority opinion of previous comments concerning the frustration of building web pages that are cross-browser compatible and meet current web coding standards. Microsoft and Opera obviously understand these issues and attempt to design their products accordingly. They may not be perfect, but they work in ways that NN only wishes it could. Why would someone who wants to be a realistic competitor in today's browser market not try to match (if not beat) their major competitors ability to meet these generally accepted standards and capabilities?

Netscape, if you want a competitive product, you've got to pull your collective corporate and PDT heads out of your dorsal posterior expulsion valves and get with the program (literally and figuratively). Right now, you're looking more and more like the latest software version of the Edsel of yore.

David R. Perl

My biggest concern is that we get a great product from Netscape. As a devout Linux user and anti-Microsoft enthusiast (although I disagree with the Justice department lawsuit), it pains me greatly to admit that Microsoft's Internet Explorer is really a better browser with much more functionality.

I agree with David's article, and hope the Netscape development team will take it to heart. They need to take their time and give us the best browser possible. I am very anxious to retract my previous statements.

Jerry Read

As a professional developer I expect, and need standards in order to develop good, robust applications.

Some standards, such as CICS, SQL and even QWERTY keyboards may have developed from closed organisations - but they have value

Netscape and Microsoft have been facing off over who provides better standards support, and currently it seems that the race has been won my Microsoft - not because their product is perfect, but because it provides a good, stable development platform for developers with no nasty surprises, and no missing functionality.
Currently the best way to build a site that works on both platforms is either to build two code bases to support object models and implementations that have little overlap, or simply develop for IE and if it works in Netscape good, if not... direct people to download a browser that works !

NN6 / IE5.5 ? Personally I don't care what my users choose, but I want to not care when I'm developing

Jeremy E Cath

I think this idea that "the browser wars are over" misses the real importance of what Netscape is capable of providing to AOL.

In the near term, marketing Netscape as browser should be a means to an end.

The means should be using an open source application that everyone understands and needs as a delivery mechanism for deploying, in essence, a new operating system.

The ends (for Netscape) should be building products and services on top of this open platform. Stuff like, say, AOL 7.0, fancy thick-client 3D MUDs, etc.

Think about it: Mozilla provides a lot of the stuff that .NET does -- good XML/DOM technology, SOAP-style RPC, net-plumbing, a multi-language interface, etc. A lot of this stuff is the kind of thing that the open-source community will plausibly contribute to, and in novel ways.

In any case, it doesn't accomplish anything for AOL if people decide that
Netscape is buggy or is weakly-interested in standards compliance.
I think people have to like it.

Marcus Daniels

I have been doing web design for 5 years, and development for 3..

Although its true I do it as a career, and do get paid for it, primarily i am developing and designing because I love doing it, its is a hobby... the most frusterating thing that can happen is getting all excited about a project, sitting down getting ready to hammer out a beautiful webpage with amazing functionality, interactivity, and clean looks .. only to get discouraged when you start on your first page and realize all the stuff you are planning on doing wont work as is in netscape, and youll have to spend hours of grunt work finding a way to force netscape to at least display the page in a usable, if not elegant, way.

Well fuck that. I dont care for netscape.. I Design because I enjoy it. I dont enjoy slaving away to make my pages work in netscape. so why should, or would I?

Honestly I dont care if netscape fucks this up or not, it makes no diffrence to me - however if they release Netscape 6, as a browser that properly displays my page, then "Mad props to netscape".

Jer

Standards compliance is crucial. In the past, you have criticized Microsoft for failing to meet standards (i.e. DOM). Now this. Please please PLEASE fix these problems before releasing NS 6.0!

"Hypocrisy" is a nasty word. Don't give people an excuse to use it against you.

David Rowell
Sr. Site Developer
Sapient Corporation

David Rowell

grrr...I can't believe this is turning out to be such a mess! Is it really that hard for browser makers to say "The DOM includes this, so let's make sure that it's supported."??? Mozilla's Open Source system (while still a pretty good idea) will always be inherently flawed so long as the product is ultimately being determined by a for-profit company such as Time-Warner.

Dan Burrowes

Same as above.

Jacqueline Belick

If NN6 is released without fixes, web developers will stop catering to it at all. Expect more NN users to be redirected to an IE download page.

Anonymous

Irate web developers: If the release of NS6 bothers you, then ignore it. Let the few NS6 users that wander by your site look at an ugly page, go back to NS4, or leave your site forever - that's your perogative. Don't try to keep NS6 from those who really care. The Internet is harsh, people!

David K. Gasaway

Netscape already has Mozilla, there is no reason to release "Betas" of Netscape 6 when all they are is a milestone build of Mozilla with a few license and naming changes. Netscape should continue to release versions of Mozilla, but without the claims that it is a finished product until it actually reaches such qualifications accordint to Mozilla's own standards.

Matt Heinzen

-November 8th, 2000 10:40 AM

Web developers need to come to grips with the real state of affairs in the web world. Things have been quite comfortable for them for a while. But truth is, new releases can break existing code - it's happened before, and will happen again. Sure, your code might be standards-compliant, but it also tip-toes around compliance issues in current browsers. Netscape 6 is more compliant that any other browser - learn to fit in the new features that work, and you'll be doing great!



Personally, I avoid sites that use MSIE-only features abusively, so if want to reach the absolute maximum users, you'd better cope. The cases where a site needs a MSIE feature to build or maintain a userbase are rare.



Many important NS6 fixes will come later, but don't try to hold it back. The initial release may not win people back from MSIE, but that's okay. At this point, Netscape is almost stuck in a power-user niche, so they can handle it. Other users may not be knowledgeable, but they're probably at least strong Netscape supporters. If they don't like NS6, they can go back to NS4 and probably won't give a thought to MSIE.



David K. Gasaway

Gregory T. Loker

Well ... I'm using Windows and Mac Systems and (right now) NN6-- really sucks toxic waste.

Erik Schmidt

Ok,
First off I make many web sites and have noticed many problems whith NS6. One of the biggest ones is it's failure to comply with CSS it does not support different coloured links, it does not support the hover function, and it doesn't support specific fonts. Im sure there are other problems with CSS that I have missed. What is up with the roll over images they dont work properly and take a minute to appear then they turn into broken images.

The support of DHTML is also making things hard to do. I DONT CARE IF IT WAS INVENTED BY MICROSOFT THEY SHOULD STILL SUPPORT IT PROPERLY BECAUSE MANY PEOPLE USE IT

My web site bizcents.com displays fine in NS4.x and IE4.x+ but in NS6 a bunch of the cells are really wide, the DHTML menus dont work, spacing is really messed up, roll over images dont work. Im going to have to make a special version for NS6.

Overall I think that NS6 is going to be great but they have to get many things worked out.

Jeff Hume

Jeff Hume

As a webdeveloper, I'd vote for Netscape to take a little longer and get the standards compliance right.

You've waited this long and now your first release will be an important event. Get it right or you'll only dig your present hole deeper.

Besides, the more times you release buggy updates, the more kludges we, the developers, have to support since many users won't be up to date. Already we still have to support Netscape v3, v4.x and MSIE v3, all with serious problems. Please don't make NS 6.0 another problem on our list.

Jeff Wilkinson

Arg.

I've been doing web development for almost all of my programming career. Back in the olden days, NS was FAR superior to IE. Let's face it, in many ways NS was the 'killer app' of the internet. Now, I (and probably most other web developers) HATE it. It's horrible to code for. It creates SO much extra work. I held out hope that NS 6 would solve these problems and FINALLY allow us to take advantage of all the great feature/specifications that are supposed to be standardized, but instead it looks like we'll all have to create even more bloated HTML 3 code since NS feels it's ok to release a broken browser again. It's sad when a solution doesn't solve any problems, just creates more.

NS pointy haired managers! Listen up! By breaking your pact with the development community and releasing a browser that doesn't live up to either it's promise, or your companies promises, you further alienate us and FORCE us to code for the ONLY WIDLY AVAILABLE COMMERCIAL BROWSER THAT WORKS --> IE. We all want to see NS 6 succeed! I believe it's not only a test for NS, but in some ways a test of the whole open source paradigm! DON'T LET DOWN THE PEOPLE WHO HAVE STOOD BY YOU! YOU'RE ALIENATING ALL THAT YOU'VE GOT LEFT!

I hope this gets read in IE. It would be a pity if the petition couldn't be read because the reader was using a broken browser.

Joe Maisel

Point NS6b at http://www.webreference.com/js/tips/000907.html and notice how the example does not work as expected. Take IE there to see it work.

Gary Keim

Every day people ask me, "Why doesn't this page look as good in Netscape?" Or ,"Why doesn't this page work like it does in Explorer?"

And every day I say, "Because Netscape sucks."

What else can I say?

Netscape is a limited product. All web developers know it and live with it every day. How many times have you cringed when you discover that a client is having problems with a site you designed because they're using Netscape.

But I'm not going to Bad-Mouth Netscape. I want Netscape to succeed. I want N6 to blow everyone away. I can only assume that Netscape is in financial dire straits, and they need to get N6 out now.

Furthermore, I can only pray that they come to realize that putting out ANOTHER substandard product will do more harm than good.

With the kind of careless management they seem to be under(aol), it's only a matter of time before we all bow our heads and have a moment of silence while netscape is put to rest.

Trent Navillus

Trent Navillus

I strongly urge Netscape to follow Mr. Flanangan's recommendations.

The company I work for already avoids using Netscape whenever possible due to standards compliance issues. If Netscape 6 ships with such egregious bugs as failure to be compatible with existing HTML (the DL in DD example), or other base level DOM compliance issues, especially those with ready fixes, than I can only imagine that we will move further from supporting Netscape. And once we go, it is almost impossible to come back.

Please understand that it is not an issue of loyalty to one browser or the other, but an issue of time and money. We simply cannot afford to write two different versions of everything, let alone go back through all our existing web code and "fix" things that used to work. This means our choices are to go with the lowest common denominator, or abandon one platform. Since our users want the best UI, the most features, etc. and we want to produce the most with the least effort, that mean we look for standards.

I understand that these are relatively minor issues compared to the overall progress in making Netscape standards compliant (if not more so than anyone else). But management may not. What they will see, from developers, from QA, from the news, is that Netscape failed to comply with (some) standards, and that it is not compatible with (some) existing HTML. And they will shy away.

Further, it seems to me that you are abandoning the very things that make an open source software project stronger than other methodologies - that important problems can be recognized and fixed relatively quickly. Don't abandon the work of the people who make Netscape 6/Mozilla possible. We've waited already. We can wait a little longer. Please make it worth the wait.

Eric Anderson

These bugs prevents many users to use Netscape 6.0, many of the websites use dynamic javascript links

Srini

These bugs prevents many users to use Netscape 6.0, many of the websites use dynamic javascript links

Srini

These bugs prevents many users to use Netscape 6.0, many of the websites use dynamic javascript links

Srini

My name is Stephen, and for two years now I have been studying HTML, CSS, and Javascript. Internet Explorer has been my browser of choice for several reasons:

1. They have a much more fully featured DOM, from my perspective, and Netscape's seeming refusal to implement a better one only encourages me to continue learning, using, and developing for Internet Explorer.
   
   The thought that Netscape will be releasing a brand new DOM for their version 6 browser only makes life that much harder for web developers.</li>
   
2. Netscape and Internet Explorer have very different implementations of basic HTML. While I don't have the time to compile a list, I will say that having to implement CSS in order to set basic HTML attributes shouldn't be necessary, and this more often than not happens in Netscape browsers.</li>
   
3. Netscape's implementation of CSS is nowhere near as complete as Internet Explorer's. On occasions where I have been able to do something really spectacular in Internet Explorer utilizing CSS, that same feat will either work poorly or won't work at all in Netscape's browser, often causing it to crash.</li>
   

This is only a short list of things that irritate me about Netscape, but if I had hours to spend at the keyboard, there wouldn't be a moment without typing. While others have argued these points better that I have, I hope that this will help make a difference.

Stephen Hock

I personally gave up designing pages to work in netscape about 4 months ago. It was right about the time I finally got fed up with all the errors I was getting using the program and switched over to IE, prior to that point I was completely pro NS. Now I try to convince all my friends to switch over to IE whenever I get the chance.

I work for a webhosting company in Masachusetts and if a page works in IE but not in NS we really don't care. It costs way too much, in time, effort, and money to try and code a page or app to work properly on IE and NS. If NS would simply stick to the standards and apply the bug fixes I think I would use their browser again, but as it stands now it is a complete waste of my time.

In my opinion NS is becoming to web browsers as AOL is to ISP's, the only people who use it are too ignorant to realize there are better options out there.

That's my two cents.

Craig Henderson

I find it totally ridiculous to think Netscape would publish 6.0 without being compliant. What is the point? Is Netscape purposely trying to alienate its users. There are some that are only holding onto their loyalty by their fingernails and others that finally let go.

Netscape has some great features but if both IE and Netscape can't get their acts together to be compliant many web developers won't have a hair left on their heads.

Sarud Jamal

I agree that for me this is Netscape's last chance to make a good product.
If Netscape 6.0 is non-standard compliant or buggy, I will be forced
to look to a competitor for my browser.

Please take the time and energy to improve Netscape 6.0 and
make it standards compliant.

I'm willing to wait for a superior product.

Terry Carruthers

We no longer feel Netscape has or will have enough market share to warrant writing multiple versions of our site. Netscape 6 PR3 still does not run JavaScript correctly (DOM support is awefull). IE has overtaken Netscape 92% to 7%. We currently filter out most DHTML for Netscape and give them the simple version.

Steven Roussey

Not only am I a developer, I teach web design. For the past year or so I've had to disappoint my advanced students time and again with "here's this great feature, but you can't use it if you're developing for Netscape." The groans are audible every single time -- people want something that can not just stand up to MSIE, but beat it back into the ground. But I always had a ray of hope to offer -- "Just wait for Netscape 6"...

... so much for that hope.

I don't care who gets the market share -- I care about being able to design to a set of standards, not the whims of some corporate hack project manager who makes the decisions of what stays and what goes according to the company's bottom-line. I can't believe that the developers at Netscape or at Microsoft actually want to serve up what their companies expect us to swallow without complaint ... they must have the worst jobs in the world right now. To have standards, to have solutions, and to be told not to implement them. I don't think I could stay in a job like that.

For the longest time now, the 'experts' in our community have been hailing Netscape 6 and Gecko as the product by which all others will be judged. How wrong were they to put their faith and the weight of their names behind this?

Perhaps its time to look to Opera and iCab for some leadership -- there certainly doesn't seem to be any company on this side of the Atlantic that has the courage to demand quality and deliver quality.

Netscape, you have a great shot at making the web a better place both for users and developers, but only if you stick to the standards. Forget about backwards compatibility -- MSIE has taken some giant steps backwards in that department and has gotten properly flamed for doing so. Stick to the standards, and deliver on the standards.

Bob Boyle

Please fix this stuff. I as well as the other developers at my company believe this is vital to the success of this product and to netscape in general.

Brant Boehmann

I'm truley hurt by the news. I have argued that Netscape is better then IE for a long time and have been awaiting the killer product that will hopefully settle the argument once and for all. It apears like that will not happen anytime soon. I have always liked netscape but as javascript becomes more and more used then the need to support it becomes more important. Please fix the release and don't make me a liar.

Patrick Fisk

As I have been trying to increase the use of CSS in my web applications, I have been very frustrated by the number of times Netscape Navigator fails to implement agreed standards. This has caused a lot of extra work, and some of the CSS standards seem unworkable in Netscape. Please wait until these sort of bugs have been fixed, then release a version that will make a decent contribution.

Peter Bennett

Like David said, this is Netscape's last chance to make a good product. I'm more than willing to wait for a superior product. Make the changes guys.

Matthew Hinton

I would rather wait and pay for a standards compliant browser than to see an inferior product released. We've waited this long. Please incorporate the bug fixes.

george tucker

Please, oh please, make sure 6.0 is compliant before release! I've fought these particular inconsistencies for years now.

Daniel Lautenschleger

I hate buggy software - so please - take the time to eliminate the errors in the navigator

Erich Weber

I've been doing web/graphic development for only 1 year, but I've already developed an extreme dislike for Netscape browsers and the hack code I have to write to ensure cross-browser compatability with IE. I've spent many additional hours changing the code so that it works in IE as well as NS. I've grown tired of having to rewrite sometimes entire pages because the few developers on the Netscape team feel that it's not important to adhere to the standards that thousands of developers use.

I was excited for NS6.0 to come out, hoping that the majority of the anti-standard bugs would be fixed. I'm in great dismay to hear that Netscape refuses to apply ready-to-go patches to bugs which they know exist. If NS6.0 is as buggy as I'm guessing it'll be, I may decide to stop coding for NS compatability all together. I'm tired of staying up till 2 in the morning for the soul fact of fixing things that don't work in NS, but work flawless in IE. And I refuse to stay up any more late nights because some hack team of "developers" decide the only thing worth developing is something to piss off every Webauthor in the world.

I have better things to do than be inefficient and unproductive for my clients because NS doesn't care about the world-wide community of web developers.

Ryan Baldwin

As a "Web Developer" the MOST important thing to me is
does it comply with the most popular browsers out there.
Right now IE has ilke approx 80%-90% of the market share.

The why is not the issue. This is just a fact. The only
thing that could grab any market share from Microsoft's IE
would be a ground breaking Browser that is easier to use,
offered more features, was backward and present compliant
and something that would extend the standards into something
that is desirable(Like IE ActiveX automatically downloaded
plugins).

NS6.0 is offering no of these. I guess they don't want a
market share... Hrmph... sad.

Christopher Holmok

Netscape,
Nobody was forcing you to rush Netscape 6 out the door, so why did you? You had a loyal following of people who were willing to wait -and wanted to wait- until you got it right. Internet users are tired of being expected to use products that are only half-completed. Web developers are even more tired of having to code work-arounds for every Netscape bug. Finally you had the oppurtunity and the support to do it right but you were still too concerned about time. Please don't ship this until it's ready.

-kris

I've been doing web/graphic development for only 1 year, but I've already developed an extreme dislike for Netscape browsers and the hack code I have to write to ensure the cross-browser compatability with IE. I've spent many additional hours changing the code so that it works in IE as well as NS. I've grown tired of having to rewrite sometimes entire pages because the few developers on the Netscape team feel that it's not important to adhere to the standards that thousands of developers use.

I was excited for NS6.0 to come out, hoping that the majority of the anti-standard bugs would be fixed. I'm in great dismay to hear that Netscape refuses to apply ready-to-go patches to bugs which they know exists. If NS6.0 is as buggy as I'm guessing it'll be, I may decide to stop coding for NS compatability all together. I'm tired of staying up till 2 in the morning for the soul fact of fixing things that don't work in NS, but work flawless in IE. And I refuse to stay up any more late nights because some hack team of "developers" decide the only thing worth developing is something to piss every web developer in the world.

I got better things to do than being inefficient and unproductive for my clients because NS doesn't care about the world-wide community of web developers.

- Ryan Baldwin

Ryan Baldwin

As one of the primary browser vendors, Netscape has an important role in the evolution of the web. The software they create has to be accommodated by website developers worldwide. However, the lack of quality assurance makes me think they will be cursed more than commended. As a webmaster, I have to work late nights because of Netscape. Because simple things that work flawlessly in IE cause problems in Netscape.

Willing or not, Netscape is responsible for these late nights - not just for me, and not just in the U.S. Thousands of hours are wasted, and will continue to be wasted if Netscape 6 is released prematurely.

Therefore, I plead that Netscape stop this problem where it starts. Release Netscape when it's ready, not when the schedule dictates. Web developers worldwide will sigh with relief, for the hard work of few will prevent the tedium of many.

Michael Kane

MOZ deserves better than this.

As it stands if the new browser cannot meet the standards, and is not reverse compatible to the 4.XX versions, then it will be the death of all future NS browsers.

I have not, and will not design for it until it becomes REAL. Solid counts for more than early. And broken (beyond reasonable bugs) is worse than non-existing.

Please fix 6 before releasing it on an unforgiving world. Put more effort into 4.XX, release the updated 4.XX as 7.XX and when 6 is ready (really ready), if ever then make it 8, 9, or 10.

Do it right, MOZ deserves it, and the world demands it.

Paul Gray

As a web developer I am tired of constantly trying to hack my html and css to work in netscape. I am disapointed that there appears to be no end to this netscape problem in sight. The only thing that I can apparently hope for is that the mozilla team will continue their efforts and will eventually fix all of their problems. Hopefully when that happens Netscape will still be around to integrate the mozilla code into another release.



Never argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level then
beat you with experience.

Ira Miller

As a web developer, I am very aware of the diversity of web browsers.

Typically, when a new browser comes out, it at LEAST supports backwards
compatibility with existing standards.

If Netscape 6.0 is released without backwards compatibility with existing standards, I will refuse to use or support it and will strongly recommend against others using or adopting it. It will be easy to talk any clients out of supporting N6 as well, based on additional cost to get their sites to work
in N6 as well as all the other browsers.

I want to see Netscape release a browser that lives up to the expectation that it will be an improvement over previous browsers, If not, well ... maybe Microsoft has won the browser wars after all, and it's death to all standards.

David LaCroix

As a web developer I am tired of constantly trying to hack my html and css to work in netscape. I am disapointed that there appears to be no end to this netscape problem in sight. The only thing that I can apparently hope for is that the mozilla team will continue their efforts and will eventually fix all of their problems. Hopefully when that happens Netscape will still be around to integrate the mozilla code into another release.


Ira Miller
------------------------------------------------------------------

Never argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level then
beat you with experience.

Ira Miller

I'm a webdeveloper.

First i'll thank you Netscape for what you have "done" for the web, now what you are doing is driving users/developers away from Nescape-Navigator to IE because of your plans to publish a buggy browser version, only to be in time. Why are you guys so ignorant.

It's very hard to develop sites which works with all major versions of Netscape. Most of the clients i'm working for are switching to IE, because of its stability. And the fakt that pages which are designed for 4.0 are also working with 5.0, 5.5 und so on...

IE is fast and stable browser, so guys do not let the old spirit die and try to give IE a good fight with a good browser...


H. A.

H. A.

I am apalled at Netscape's carelessness here. Do they not understand what reputation their version 4.x(i liked 3) browser has with nearly everyone? Netscape 4.x, bluntly put, sucks. I have used every public release of version 6.0 and I was quite pleased with the progress they were making, it actually began to restore my faith in Netscape. The prospect my web apps would work correctly in both excited me as a developer and as a consumer. I use operating systems other than Windows and Netscape(mozilla) is the only viable alternative to IE, since IE is not on most other platforms(mainly linux). Rushing this product to market will only gain them one thing, a label of laziness and poor quality(which they already have as far as I am concerned).



We already have an internal corporate on Netscape, which I was hoping to lift for version 6.0. I guess the ban will be in place until 7.0 if this continues.

Chris Newbill

The complaints against Netscape are a load of bunk. People seem to expect that Netscape should be bug-free upon release. This simply doesn't happen with point-0 releases. The truth is, this is a very complex project they are working on - it is a fresh, standards-compliant, and mostly platform-independent project with a huge store of barely tested code behind it.

How well did IE perform when it was in a similar situation - when it was first released? Yet, look where it is now. I think Netscape should consider NS6 an entirely new product, and give it a new name and all. But it looks like that isn't going to happen.

When Netscape finally brought in Mozilla code to start Navigator 6, they were faced with an important decision. They could either concentrate on transforming Mozilla to Netscape, or put their hands all over the code at once. The latter was certainly not an attractive option. They have to juggle priorities for implementing interface, rendering, networking, security, e-mail, newsgroups, etc.

Web developers need to come to grips with the real state of affairs in the web world. Things have been quite comfortable for them for a while. But truth is, new releases can break existing code - it's happened before, and will happen again. Sure, your code might be standards-compliant, but it also tip-toes around compliance issues in current browsers. Netscape 6 is more compliant that any other browser - learn to fit in the new features that work, and you'll be doing great!

Personally, I avoid sites that use MSIE-only features abusively, so if want to reach the absolute maximum users, you'd better cope. The cases where a site needs a MSIE feature to build or maintain a userbase are rare.

Many important NS6 fixes will come later, but don't try to hold it back. The initial release may not win people back from MSIE, but that's okay. At this point, Netscape is almost stuck in a power-user niche, so they can handle it. Other users may not be knowledgeable, but they're probably at least strong Netscape supporters. If they don't like NS6, they can go back to NS4 and probably won't give a thought to MSIE.

David K. Gasaway

As a lead engineer at a large web development firm, I will encourage my clients to design sites that simply refuse to work when Netscape 6.0 is detected, advising users to "upgrade" to either a working mozilla, an older Netscape, or to IE 5.x. Users and site developers shouldn't have to put up with this sort of short-sightedness. The Mozilla team has done a lot of hard work, and is willing to go that extra mile. Netscape is beyond foolish in not respecting the work and working pace of the Mozilla team and deserves to be punished not just by the developer community but by non-adoption of their standards-shirking browser by the user community.

Manni Wood

I'm a novice, and I uninstalled the beta version of Netscape 6 simply because it was unattractive, unclear and just generally confusing to use. I still use Netscape 4.7, but after hearing all these arguments, and being basically unskilled in the use of browsers anyhow, I believe I'll stick to what I've got untill approvements come about for the new Netscape browser (if they do.) I've actually found the Netscape browser to be consistently stronger than the IE I have and prefer it greatly. Too bad I can't upgrade...

Lola Strickland

There was a time when Netscape was "the" platform to develop for. However, this has not been the case for some time now. The Netscape 6 bungle is further evidence that Netscape could care less about how difficult development on their platform is, or how much hacked code we have to write to get their hacked code to work...

Buck Poe

While I applaud Netscape for their goal of compliance, Netscape 6 is at odds with the reality of currently-deployed browsers and the sites written to work with them. While Netscape 6 provides rich possibilities for DHTML, a great deal of existing DHTML does not work. We would have to make extensive changes to sites we have created in order to make them work with Netscape 6, although they work fine across Netscape and IE 4 and above, and very often v3 and above.

It will be difficult to sell the programming time necessary to perform these retro-fits before Netscape 6 is well-accepted -- and difficult for Netscape 6 to become well-accepted without these retro-fits in place.

The best chance Netscape has is if Microsoft forges ahead in the same direction with IE6 as Netscape has with their 6th-generation browser. However, from a strictly economic view, Microsoft may as well deal the death blow now and look at W3C standards later. If IE6 provides backward-compatibility with proprietary extensions, as well as support of W3C standards, then Netscape will be left at the margins.

Mark Kolmar

I *used* to be a big netscape fan. But with every single release they seem to fall further and further behind. If they think that releasing based on ship dates instead of product quality is going to help them, I think its time for new leadership.


As a web developer, it takes an extraordinary amount of effort to keep my applications multi-browser compatible. And for most of us, we try at all costs to avoid having to build gateways to split into subsites based on client type. However, it seems that Netscape is trying to push us into what is seeming more and more like an inevitability.... "I'm sorry, this site uses advanced features, and thus, you will require Microsoft Internet Explorer."

Gregory T. Loker

Ship it NOW!
Do it, ship now!

I was a loyal NN user until IE5, it is quite simply better.

I am tired of the browser war and I feel that if Netscrape 6 is released now, it will begin the "end of Netscape", this will let IE take over.


The bs about N6 and the downloads and the crashes and the "we need javascript testers" when no js worked and the crashes and the ctrl-alt-del-> end task and the crashes and the java and and and and and... have led me to hate Netscape.

Aleph Dev

Dear Netscape,



Please release 6.0 ASAP. I want every end-user to install it, hate it, and switch to the better browser (we all know what that is).

Nothing could make me happier than a horrific deployment of 6.0.
Well, one thing could make me happier -- a class action suit against Netscape filed on behalf of web engineers for the Netscape monopoly on terrible browsers.


Thanks,
Steve Jansen

Steve Jansen

I have been working on websites for over a year now and during that time I have endured a continual struggle dealing with the incompatabilities of Netscape. I would strongly recommend that you rename the upcoming release of Navigator 6.0 as a beta and reopen the tree and allow your engineers to apply the patches they've already created. And that you refocus your attention and efforts on standards compliance.

The web will suffer until we work together towards standards compliance.

susan sheard

As a Linux and Solaris user, Netscape is a kind of natural browser to me. But I have to admit that the Netscape 4 series is the worst application I use commonly, it has nothing besides in terms of instability.

I would really appreciate Netscape delivering a stable and standards compliant browser, because that's the best way to save us from an Windows and Mac-only web with IE setting standards. Once Microsoft doesn't has to follow standards any longer because of lack of competitors, don't you think they will define their own?

It took so long time anyway... just hold on a bit longer and accept the help of the open source community!

Jörg Cassens

I have been an Internet Explorer user as long as I've been desinging web pages, but I had anxiously awaited the release of Netscape 6.
I've seen all three preview releases; they are nothing as I expected. The program itself fails terribly as far as properly implementing CSS. The interface is terrible and has only improved slightly- I would never skin a browser.
Sadly, it's looking like I'm going to have to stick with IE.

Katelynn Corrigan

As a web programmer who's been doing this since there was a web, I have been waiting for the day when we get target platforms that are standards-compliant. I see that I must keep waiting. I am very disappointed that Netscape 6 appears to drop the bal - yet again - in this area. Why should I develop for your platform???

Kris Rudin

First, I want to say that I've used Netscape as my browser of choice for a little over 4 1/2 years. I think Netscape Communicator is a fantastic concept in that it has so many easy features built in to it. I think the mail client is the best intigrated program available. I've used each release up to 6.0 Beta. Now, having said that...

I have reverted back to version 4.76 and even then I have concerns. I am currently running WindowsME and even with version 4.76, it's difficult to get netscape to close fully after exiting. 90% of the time I have to press CTL-ALT-DEL and choose End Task to stop the system hang. 6.0 wasn't any better and this is just a smattering of the problems I've encountered. I won't even get into the Java problems because I could go all day.

In my years of using Netscape, I've seen features improve and quality worsen. I am hoping that by sharing my honest opinion of a browser I prefer to use that this issues will be carefully scrutinized and repaired. I am also hoping the quality assurance of Netscape/AOL improves and less problematic releases are made in the future. Netscape will continue to be my browser of choice until the slowing lack of qualiity and the problems make using it a chore/hassle to use rather than a convenience. Unfortunately, it seems to be heading that way. I will be positive and pray that Netscape will do better for its consumers and its own reputation.

Robert Kerr

First, I want to say that I've used Netscape as my browser of choice for a little over 4 1/2 years. I think Netscape Communicator is a fantastic concept in that it has so many easy features built in to it. I think the mail client is the best intigrated program available. I've used each release up to 6.0 Beta. Now, having said that...

I have reverted back to version 4.76 and even then I have concerns. I am currently running WindowsME and even with version 4.76, it's difficult to get netscape to close fully after exiting. 90% of the time I have to press CTL-ALT-DEL and choose End Task to stop the system hang. 6.0 wasn't any better.

In my years of using Netscape, I've seen features improve and quality worsen. I am hoping that by sharing my honest opinion of a browser I prefer to use that this issues will be carefully scrutinized and repaired. I am also hoping the quality assurance of Netscape/AOL improves and less problematic releases are made in the future. Netscape will continue to be my browser of choice until the slowing lack of qualiity and the problems make using it a chore/hassle to use rather than a convenience. Unfortunately, it seems to be heading that way. I will be positive and pray that Netscape will do better for its consumers and its own reputation.

Robert Kerr

Standards compliance? Why comply with standards? Why even have standards?! There is not enough sarcasm in the world with which to address this issue.

Jane Haskin

The "browsers war" has been devastating enough within the programmer’s community and contributed to lots of painful "work around" fixes. Do we need a buggy browser on top of that? No wonder Microsoft is wining that war.
I would like to see a rock solid version of Navigator that adheres to industry standards and is reliable even if it takes 6 more month of development work. Good software (like good programming) takes time.

Ricardo Alvez

with netscape 6, we will have to continue in programing wrong html- and other code in order to take into account the netscape-users.
webdesign for netscape-browsers is very disillusioning. i can´t understand, why its not possible to create a browser equivalent or better than MS IE....

Daniel Pfanner

Will Netscape/AOL Bill Gates mit seinen Bugs Konkurrenz machen? Wir brauchen funktionierende Software. Kein Browser mit bekannten Bugs ausliefern!

s.piel

Do not buckle under to marketing deadline... support standards now! Simply put, Netscape marketing is being shortsighted. And poorly lead! The Netscape browser share will continue to slip if a less than standard compliant browser is released. MSIE will continue to bite more and more from AOL/Netscape with a Netscape 6 release, and course of action, that fails to meet the standards. (A reversal of personalities if you will... who is the fierce creature here? Is Netscape really just a technological "dinosaur" or the
terror-of-Redmond "Mozilla")

Some of these "unimportant bugs" will break many of the marketing/shopping/"profit and ad revenue" sites so important to the Netscape marketing lemmings. Then where will Netscape be? Very much at the bottom of the browser stack.

Timothy Stone

MAKE A BETTER BROWSER THAN MS/IE, NOTHING ELSE MATTERS.
DON"T STOP HALFWAY.

James E. Owens

To whom it may concern,

I have been developing for the web for about 4 years now and I have to say that the last few years of Netscape 4.x have been nothing short of excruciating. The post-crash quality-assurance bug tracker has apparently been all but ignored by the Netscape development staff. I can assure you that neither I, nor the rest of my company's development staff will support NS6 development until the program functions at least as well as IE4 (which it currently does not.) So, my parting words to the Netscape Development Team are...

QUIT FUCKING OVER WEB DEVELOPERS!!!! LIKE OUR DAYS AREN'T LONG ENOUGH ALREADY THAT WE HAVE TO DEAL WITH A CRAPPY-ASS, GO-WHINE-TO-THE-JUSTICE-DEPARTMENT-BROWSER THAT CRASHES WITH LITTLE OR NO PROVOCATION. DO THE RIGHT THING.

Casey Gum

Whether the standards compliance issue is operating system dependent or not is irrelevant, it exists in Windows operating systems and in so many widespread and even basic and fundamental ways as to be too many to list. To argue the case that Netscape should not fix compliance issues in their final release is arrogant elitism at best. Most mainstream Internet browsers are using a Windows operating system.

So if you are serious about building a decent product then get it to work for the majority or don't release it. Call it beta as long as you want and have no compliance, no one cares, but releasing it and telling a public who doesn't know better that it is compliant is ridiculous. That is what this is about and if you are arguing against this you either need to become a realist or not say anything.

Jeffrey Williams

How standards complient is Internet Explorer 5.5 (WIN)? How complient is Netscape 4.7? Now, look at how complient Mozilla and Netscape 6 are.

Face it, there is never going to be a perfect browser. We have to get a good, solid, browser to the market. If it's not 100% complient, it's not going to be the end of the world.

If we can get a browser that is more standards complient the either of the major two, then we did our jobs. Standards change anyway, and you'll only be able to use "100% standards complient" until new standards are published (and look at how many are currently in the works!).

If you keep fighting about what needs to get done, NOTHING WILL GET DONE.

The "driver's" of the project are the people who should decide what is important, and they make sure it gets done.

Orrin

This is ridiculous. Everyone knows what this is really about but now one has the gaul to say it in a nutshell. I have tested various Mozilla releases from it's original coneption to m18(Netscape 6 PR1,PR2 & PR3 included) on several different platforms(Linux, Solaris, Macintosh, OS/2, Windows, etc.) and the
only times I experience these headlong problems are when running Netscape 6
pre-releases on Windows no less. Why, Simple because of Explorer. The damn
thing is the GUI and represents the most common set of the public Windows API
set for that matter.

Now I'm not trying to turn this into a flame war but I think what's going on here is quite obvios. To prove it I even installed Netscape 6 PR3 on the original Windows 98 with no windows or explorer updates. Guess what it ran as
flawlessly as it did on other operating systems. But as soon as I updated explorer to 5 or greater guess what started happening. That's right I started
having major problems with Netscape 6. The bottom line is Microsoft uses a hidden API structure internally and hands a second less intuitive API set to third-party developers. The result is that Microsoft software always runs
better then that of it's third party competition on Windows.

Case in point the macintosh. Totally third party no strings attached placed
Netscape 6 well over Internet Explorer 5.5. Too bad Microsoft didn't release
a version for Linux as well. Oh and by the way aside from bugs caused from Windows there are very few ulterior bugs in Netscape 6. The fact is the rendering engine,while a tad bit slower then Explorers pre-loaded bloatware,
is 5 times more compliant and 10 times more well engineered then that of I.E.
5. Even the loading of complex tables with multimedia components far exceeds
that of it's two largest competitors.

Now as for why this article on O'Reilly's oreilly.com was published in the first place is simple. Some guy out there just wanted to make a name for himself. Yeah, I'm talking about you Mr. Flanagan. You wanted exposure and since Microsoft bashing isn't in style much anymore you figured Netscape bashing could
get you as much notereity. I got it now why don't you join the bandwagon of Howard Stern or Bill Clinton bashers. Bet you there's a TV spot in it, I almost guarantee it. For all those taking this article seriously, sure there are some valid points, but in any bashing article you have valid points, doesn't mean the summation is correct.

As for people who read this statement I am sure there will be responses and some negative. However, I have not said anything that isn't true and I have not reached the point of bashing Microsoft. There are things not here about Microsoft that have been known for years that qualify as bashing material. I have not used any of that material though because I wanted to concentrate on just the technology and compliancy, not the other more shady affairs. Lastly,
to reiterate a great point. While Mr. Flanagan herendously bashing Netscape I haven't heard a whisper from Mr. Flanagan petitioning against the release of iCab or IE6 or Konqueror. Why go figure. To add on in Mr. Flanagan's book in
which he claims to define W3C compliancy he makes no mention as to DOM1, which
by the way has been a thorn in Microsoft's side. This brings up two questions
in my mind.

A) What is Mr. Flanagan's true intentions with this book and this obvious cheap
marketing tactic ?

B) If his intentions are not commercially motivated and Mr. Flanagan wants to go on about unbiased W3C compliancy (Not showing any relevance to relevant standards such as the Document Object Model) does he actually know a damn thing ?

(Personally I think it's Mr. Flanagan that fails standards and horrificly at that)

As for the rest I'll leave that up to the reader. ;)

waltert3@mailbr.com.br

I am a Systems Engineer currently working on an intranet development project for the USAF. I believe I could probably whip out a better quality browser with Visual Basic's browser creating wizard.

Jayce Gayton

Besides fixing the bugs, what is needed is a thorough set of standard tests which are run before the product is released. I would rather wait for a higher quality product than be disappointed with a series of quick releases.
Does Netscape/Mozilla have a quality assurance organization, or are they depending on the marketplace for that?

Mike Aigen

I think it's about time Netscape was held responsible for the shoddy standards compliance of NS6. As a web developer I've been working around the bugs in NS4.x for years and just when I'm thinking I don't have to worry about it anymore *poof* here's another shoddy browser for me to have to learn the bugs and workarounds. Just a waste of all of our time.
And also, anybody scope out the memory consumption of the damn thing? It's horrid, a complete insult. And slower than molassas in january to boot.

It's time to give up, Netscape.

On the other hand, I think the mozilla project's doing a fine job and they should keep on, since eventually, *someday* they'll have a decent browser. I'm not holding my breath, though. I'll stick with Opera and IE

Zakariya

Netscape 6 is the most standard compliant "product" on the "market" today.

Wowie

To tell someone or something to 'eat shit' clearly shows immaturity. Now, I dislike Internet Explorer v.Anything, simply because it has asserted itself as the best internet browser in all existance. However, it is not. Anyone who was around the internet 4 years ago knows that Internet Exploder was rarely heard of, and about as standard compliant as dirt. There was Netscape and Mosaic, really, to choose from 4 years ago. My point? If you're going to say something, make it worth while. "Eat shit" is really just showing your ass, and it was rather stupid of you to do so, in my opinion.

Now, on to the issues (something the presidential campaigning never really got around to).

Netscape should be delayed, and all its holes plugged. It's like setting a ship to sea with a hull breach. More importantly, Netscape should make v6.0 compliant to all forms of online document standards. Truthfully, they would be the first browser company to do so.

Anonymous

Eat shit Netscape! You suck!

love Heywood

Heywood Jablowme

I agree since it's a big hassle to make every HTML page work on major browsers due to deviations from standards. The internet community must get compliant browses so we, the developers, can focus on things that matters instead of this constant hacking. We also need support for emerging standards like XML.

Tony Schon

Having only used Mozilla fleetingly for development I suppose I fall into the group of people who have not really performed an in depth analysis of its conformedness to standards. However I have bumped into a couple of the faults mentioned and took it to be an expression of onstability.

Now, the way it works on ongoing projects (or so is MHO) is that you release when you want to show people what you have. If you have known bugs you call it "Beta" or "Prerelease" or something. It would seem that there is no contest of Netscape's right to make a release but rather a general opinion that one should call a shovel a shovel and make the upcoming release a beta.

Nathan Droft

Dear Netscape,

Release a buggy product *again* and you will be dead-in-the-water. The Free Software Community is hot on your heals... if your product is not better than the free stuff, why would we pay for it?

MRA

Michael Roy Ames

ok,
here are my 2 cents.
I used an alpha or beta or Communicator 6, and it did not work for me.
I am a web developper, on a mac, and I find IE to not support all the standards that I want to use. When I make my page in what I believe to be standard HTML, CSS and javascript, I do not get the same pretty result in IE as I do in Netscape 4.7 . I want this "goodlookingness" to continue with Netscape 6.
I do not want a buggy release of NN6 that does not support standards because
then we are crewed... off to IE we go... since it is the lesser of 2 evil.

conclusion ?
FIX THE DAMNED THING, AND NOT IN A HALF ASSED WAY!

The Admiral

Dave...GO FUCK YOURSELF

Ever look at this from an end user's point of view??? ...or a business person's point of view for that matter?

There's more to computing and the internet that what codeheads like you see.

Netscape is a BUSINESS....and has to balance between releasing a fairly stable product and releasing it in a timely manner to protect its marketability.

Netscape has REAMINED SOLVENT in the face of microsoft....that is an amazing feat by itself. AOL, Netscape's parent company, has transformed itself from the laughing stock of everyone paying attention to a respecatble internet goliath.

Please do not write back arguing that netscape DID sell out to AOL and that AOL is only as big as it is because of the tons of internet illiterate people out there....the fact is..what Netscape and AOL accomplished takes BALLS and a great deal of business pizazz.

I am in the IT field but my parent are not....I dont use AOL..but they do...and I LIKE AOL because it helps me keep in touch with my parents...get the drift? So....quit hogging bandwidth and go back to kissing microsoft's ass until you have something good to say :)

KAPIL

Netscape continues to make development difficult for the web, and I wish that would just put up or shut up. Netscape was good, but IE has long since been surpassing them with CSS and DOM. Before I ever use NN6, I will go with Mozilla or IE.

They need to come in behind developers, not just please their shareholders and their masters at AOL.

Maurice Reeves

Haven't web developers delt long enough with Netscape being to specific? Now we have to deal with Non-standards complience? What next, are they going to re-write HTML and call it NML? Don't become Microsoft, Netscape!!!

John Leask

OK, so I have to provide a comment. Well here it is: no comment!

Patrick Verkaik

sounds like the end of netscape...

yay no more catering for a crap browser!!!

pity that basically lets microsoft do whatever they want :(

Lanson

Finally a standards compliant browser! I thought...
This serious misstake from Netscape will really boost
even further the use of IE even though that one s*cks
as well.
I do like the mozilla project though. Open source is here
to stay.

magnus lindahl

I have used serveral test versions of Netscape 6.0 and have to say it's the worst browser ever created. It lacks support for open standards and, for that, should be delayed. Netscape has, and always will, suck as a browser with regards to flexibility and programmalibity.

IUnknown

I have used serveral test versions of Netscape 6.0 and have to say it's the worst browser ever created. It lacks support for open standards and, for that, should be delayed. Netscape has, and always will, suck as a browser with regards to flexibility and programmalibity.

IUnknown

A real fellow Netscape user here since 1.x ones... I continueusly test those preview things even while they cannot even uninstall themselves..
Shocking, Netscape is dead... Plugins are invented by Netscape, and guess what? You cannot install plugins to Netscape 6 (ridicilously except wmedia, which only registers file type)...
No plugin??? Wake up people, if we OK -no plugin- situation, we use Opera! It is better than all.
Bye to netscape, sadly

Ilgaz Öcal

Why can't Netscape wait to deliver a product that is actually doing what they are anouncing the whole time, namely being a product of 6th generation, not another new branch with new bugs, but a product based on and evolving already tested products? (although the last part is only partly true for versions >4.73)
And another thing:
IF they have to deliver the buggy version, maybe the Autoupdate (which would be mandatory in this case) can be modified to really _update_ the Browser if fixes are available, _not_ download a completely new version/product?

--
.sig under construction

Achim J. Latz

Here we go again... This is ridiculous... Netscape, you championed the angle of standards compliance, dont give developers one more reason to use Flash, and ditch the whole HTML thing once and for all...

Ben Davies

As a interface programmer I spend 50-60% of my time making things work in netscape, when only 20% of people use Netscape I think this is a wast of time. Get things sorted Netscape.

Andy Bettger

Full compliance to todays standards ought to be the first consern for all browser developers.

John Bredal

They are missing a massive opportunity to regain market share in releasing a product full of critical problems (sound familiar??!)

David Geran

Please don't release anything that isn't standards compliant this time!

Robert Nyman

I'm also for postponing the next release of Netscape until it more closely adheres to the current standard.

Kevin Luu

please, do this right this time...

Nicolas Ballinas

Simply put this stinks. It's hard enough right now to deal with an old version of Netscape, but that combined with a new uncompatible version? Ridiculous!

nate

I have always been a great supporter of the Mozilla endeavour, and of Netscapes support of it.

It has been my hope that the product of these two years or so would be a fully standards compliant browser, that would enable a new generation of Web applications.

Netscape must realise it is not going to win back any greater chunk of market share by getting a browser out now or in Six months time. The market share will be based on it's usefullness, and therefore it's uptake by developers.

Netscape. Hold back. Check in dem bug patches.

Daniel Bambach

So when you going to do a parallel article about all the gaping security holes/driving a coach and horses through standards issues in IE? Oh, let me guess, not enough space and life's just too short. I've been a web developer since 94 (yeah, right back when Bill was saying the Internet was a geek novelty that wouldn't go mainstream before he "discovered" the net in 96) and have continually been driven to distraction by attempting to code to the crud coming out of Redmond. What happened to balance?

Gecko Mozilla

C'mon. Netscape is light years ahead of IE in terms of standard compliance - also be fair - the only reason you were able to write this article is because Mozilla opens their source and buglist. With IE, MS just let us find the bugs when it's too late. I for one have used most of the Mozilla milestones (with varying degrees of satisfaction) and am well looking forward to Mozilla release/NS 6 but this kind of FUD could sink it before it starts.

Paul Davis

Nuff said.

Just get it compliant. It's your last and only chance to compete with IE.

I've been with you from Netscape 2.
At the moment I'm still using Communicator 4.7x (Netscape 3 was the best), though I have to admit that IE is the better browser right now (more options, less bugs, more users)).

I was kinda hoping that you guys would beat the shit out of IE with Netscape 6.0.
But till now, you didn't.

If I have to choose between making two different sites to make it compatible with both browsers and just making one, I'd choose the last option.
And right now it wouldn't be in favour for Netscape I'm afraid.

I'd hate to see you guys disappear. Please get it full-proof!

S. Witte

I have worked extensively with Netscape's Messaging server product on Solaris, as well as their Directory server product (also on Solaris). The Directory product has been pretty good, but it makes a few "optimizations" at the expense of being strictly in compliance with standards. I don't necessarily object to that per se, but that's maybe another issue.

I do object to the way their Messaging server works, however. In a number of cases (enough that I will not list them here) I or others in my group have come across bugs or simple design flaws in the product where it totally ignored something which is standard, or implemented it incorrectly. On a number of occasions we have had to actually quote sections of RFC821 or RFC822 to their engineers, and occasionally they even come back and tell us that we are wrong. It's not a matter of opinion, it's the RFC!

In some product lines I would not care. But email is the "killer app" of the Internet, it is more well established than any other use of the network, and the standards documentation that define how it works have been around for years and years. There is absolutely no excuse for some of the bad behavior I have seen in the product.

I realize that this doesn't directly apply to their browser technology. In fact, the browser is maintained by the AOL arm of the company, and the server products are maintained by iPlanet (which is on the Sun Microsystems side of the fence). But I just felt I should point out that I have seen this type of ignorance of standards in favor of shipping product in other products which have come out of Netscape.

Dan Lowe

This is yet another nail in the coffin lid for Netscape.

I have been designing web sites and intranet based systems now for 6 years.
Over that period of time we have seen Netscape move from being pretty much the
only browser, thru best browser, a pretty good browser, the browser thats an
alternative to IE, to where we are today:-

A browser thats coming from a company that worries more about deadlines
than quality and adherence to standards.

Im very saddened by this, as although my work has always been cross browser
compatible, often at the expense of cutting edge technology, or requiring two
sets of code with a browser detect-and-redirect script, I have always advocated
Netscape over IE specifically because of its better support for standards.

It seems that this can no longer be the case. I wonder just what Netscape will
have going for it now that its traditional rival IE looks to support common
standards and is so freely available - even if its not part of the OS any more
;-)

Please Netscape - if you must roll out 6.0 roll it out as beta, then go back
to the code and get it right....

As another thought, how much time and energy has been poured into the extra
bloatware gubbins that comes with netscape???

Do we really want an email client, news client web design package.... etc etc
etc... now if it made good coffee... ;-)

--

Christopher J Williams - still using Netscape (just)

Christopher J Williams

*sigh*

I really was hoping Netscape 6 would be a really worthwhile browser to develop for. I was hoping that I'd be able to tell people that it was worth using this in favour of IE5.5, due to its full compliance etc., but it appears not.

Ah well, I guess I'll still check my pages work, but I'm probably going to keep IE 5 as my main browser for a short while at least.

Tom Knight

*sigh*

I really was hoping Netscape 6 would be a really worthwhile browser to develop for. I was hoping that I'd be able to tell people that it was worth using this in favour of IE5.5, due to its full compliance etc., but it appears not.

Ah well, I guess I'll still check my pages work, but I'm probably going to keep IE 5 as my main browser for a short while at least.

Tom Knight

I want the browsers to support HTML 4.0, CSS 1 and ECMAScript (the "official" version of JavaScript).

I have to and want to work for costumers, and I don't want to spend my time working around lousy bugs...

khofstaetter

Your one and ONLY chance to compete with IE is to be standards compliant to the point where everyone involved in making web pages clearly prefer to work with NS6 before IE. If you're not these people will just ignore your browser, and as they do, pages won't work with it, and it won't stand a chance of catching on. It's compliance or all your work will be wasted, that's the truth. Now do the right thing. Please.

Martin Sandin

Remove the crap from NS! I want a webbrowser not a email client with newsreader and html editor!

Johan Hallberg

räv

Henric Larsson

So where's mozilla's value, in AOL tabs ?????

pfff.

David Bourget

Hi,
I am webmaster for a very big multinational. We test web pages for all possible browsers available on the market. Most of the time we have to create seperate webpages for IE and Netscape, just because they differ too much. To me Netscape 3 Gold still was the best browser ever. IE is not just a browser, it is a shell. However we all can see that IE is widely used and web sites that doesn't work with a Netscape browser are increasing by the day. This will continue, be sure of that, certainly when Netscape 6 turns out to be a non-compliant browser.
We are following Netscape 6 very closely and already discouvered irritating things (some of them are mentioned in the article). If the final release isn't improved (bugs solved) we simply won't support Netscape 6 on our web sites.
Let's say this: Netscape 6 HAS TO BE 100% bug-free to be even able to compete IE6! You can download preview releases of Netscape 6, I ask myself why because they simply won't listen...

kerr dave

As a Linux user I really hope that version 6 of Netscape is up to the standard. I am sick and tired of it not supporting all of the features that IE does.

James Clarke

<h3>Browsers, Pussies and Standards</h3>

I build websites and networks for a living. This is my day, night, and weekend job. It is what I have decided to do with my life.

I belong to the Web Standards Project. I joined on the first day.
Why? Because I was tired of having to code around
browser i n c o m p a t i b i l i t i e s.
I even made my own Banner.
<img src="http://www.lemurzone.com/images/awsp.gif" width="402" height="24" alt="Web Standards Project" border="1">

I want the browsers to support HTML 4.0, CSS 1 and ECMAScript (the "official" version of JavaScript).

These three Standards alone would create a web that with Correct Coding and Validation would create a web available to everyone connected to the web.(There are more, but these are my picks)

Netscape and Microsoft both belong to the W3C. They are both on the committees that create the Standards. None of these Standards are surprises. Nor were they experimental when the WSP called the browser Makers to support these Standards.

I use Microsoft's Internet Explorer for my browser.
Am I happy with it? No I'm not.
Reason #1 Web Standards and Internet Explorer 5 Part 2
Reason #2 The Microsoft Internet
Reason #3 You are being Screwed Again!!

Chris Nelson is the creator of Mozillazine, a website allegedly created to follow the development of Mozilla, Netscape's Standards Compliant Browser Code, the Gecko rendering engine.

He wrote an article in response to a posting by David Flanagan : Netscape Navigator 6.0 to Fail Standards Compliance
.

Poor Chris, let's address the whines and bitches first. You wrote;

The first conflict was with the raving loonies of the WSP. The WSP whines and bitches about standards compliance. They create a petition[1] to convince Netscape to switch to development of their "Gecko" rendering engine technology, which promises greater standards compliance. They take credit for the Mozilla project moving to this new technology.

Chris; I refer you to the following email referenced in the link above[1]

Re:Web Standards Project - NGLayout Petition

submitted by The WaSP

Monday October 26th, 1998 10:24:00 PM

Reply to this message
</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td bgcolor="#ffffff">Today Netscape informed The Web Standards Project that it has agreed to include NGLayout in Nav 5. </td>
</tr></table>

It worked! It may be petition envy on your part, but we will put that aside for a moment.

You then drone on about all the interest that other sites are getting as a result to Flanagans article. You made reference to folks not having made "a modest assessment of Netscape 6's standards compliance". (Did You Read Flanigans article and follow the links?) Then by God, you stand up on your hind legs with this gem;

"In any case, this crap will no longer will find a home in MozillaZine. So, take a good long look. Gaze into Mr. Flanagan's eyes. Because he's the last guy with an axe to grind against Netscape that you will see in these pages. The last armchair-marketer to get a say on this site. You'll have to go elsewhere to get your fix. (However, I allow myself an exception to clobber the hell out of the WSP if they continue to act like pussies.) 

I think that Richard Nixon said something along the same lines in the 60's. There is hope for you.

Atta Boy!! Don't let us raving loonies get away with a single pixel that might possibly interrupt your career as an armchair-marketer! Click on the link if you can't wait!

The absolute crown jewel of your argument was this:

"Netscape is in the unenviable position of choosing between bug-fixes and product release - the Scylla and Charybdis of software development."

This excuse was tried in Nuremberg following World War II. It didn't work then. it's not gonna work now.

Standards are for everyone. Not just so I and the rest of the raving loonies who believe that the web is for everyone can save a little time coding once, but by using the standards for enabling accessibility, for the handicapped, having sites that render quicker, separate content from presentation, and generally the make the web a better place for you too.

But Wait!! There's More!!

Being a raving loonie with an internet connection, a little time and just to prove that I really care about standards, I made the following inquiry's about your article

Here is the W3C result of your article: http://www.mozillazine.org/talkback.html?article=1708
You don't close your

tags either!

Your Style Sheet Valid with warnings.

Bobby doesn't find anything!

It is a real good thing that Netscape is not Standards Compliant. You would be in a world of crap. BTW, you should close all those

tags. It looks like this

the armchair-marketer bit

I see your site presents banner advertisements. Do your visitors know that you are invading their privacy? I didn't see any notice or opportunity to opt out.

Even I have a privacy policy

Why doesn't your website disclose that you set cookies on the hardrives of ever visitor to your site? Heres Mine!

Your ad server has a privacy policy at least.

You should for the next week or so see a dramatic upturn in hits to your article. You may generate enough revenue to seek some help for your petition issues.

your friend in cyberspace....the head lemur.

Anonymous

I have a programmer working for me and she was taught to use the standard compliant codes/tags set by W3C. Guess what? She hates developing for Netscape because it's not standard compliant.

The other thing is that Javascript which is working in IE5.x and Netscape 4.7x is not working in Netscape 6 preview 3. Should I ask the programmers to recode again and charge our clients extra money so that they have a version that works on NS4.7x & IE5.x and another that works only in NS 6?

I tried Mozilla as well and most of the time it crashes my machine, something that NS 4.x does very often.

Fare thee well NS.

Kenny

Shuffling through the comments above, a lot of people appear to be expressing their pent-up rage about having to develop for NS 4.7 as it became increasingly obsolete.

Some of those folks, though, don't appear to be making the essential distinction between the 4.x codebase and 6, which is grounded on Mozilla/Gecko. You Web developers used to the pestilential nightmare of making things work on a browser too old to properly support them won't necessarily have the same experience with the upcoming release - it's from the same company, but it's completely different technology, redone from the ground up.

That said, I move on to the criticism levelled against NS 6 today.

It looks to me like W3C standards are trying, not so successfully, to hit a rapidly changing target of advancing browser technology. The items Mr. Flanagan mentions are parts of DHTML, the Web's current bleeding-edge technology. It doesn't yet fully work anywhere.

Let's not get ahead of ourselves. We're complaining here about the imperfect implementation of features designed to make a Web browser a full-featured user interface platform for other programs, at a time when the leading Web browser can't even render 'small' text small and 'medium' text medium.

I'd say it's the job of Web standards to plow along a ways behind the bleeding edge, organizing the chaos that edge has left behind to ensure these two things:

• For well-established, time-tested things, every browser does them in the same way.</li>
  
• That way is simple, logical, and essential, not full of cruft.</li>
  

That is the criterion I will be judging browsers' standards compliance by in the next year or so. I will be looking for 'small' text rendered small, 'medium' text rendered medium, and 'points' to really mean typographic points instead of some random other choice of unit. I will be looking for lists rendered as lists and headings as headings.

Once those basics are fully dealt with, more advanced standards will have a solid foundation to grow on.

DHTML will come. It may not come yet, but it will arrive eventually - and its birth will probably be as painful as CSS'. Screaming about it won't really bring that standardized day one second closer; it'll only discourage and infuriate those who are working to bring it about.

Download and try out that beta before complaining about it; and keep watch of progress toward a standardized Web rather than screaming like an angry kid about even the tiniest deviations. You'll only be able to get results by differentiating positive moves from perceived backslides and providing feedback about each.

Jack Doe

As a web developer, nothing bothers me more than browsers that aren't fully standards compliant. I try to develop everything based on HTML standards, and when a standard doesn't function properly, it's very frustrating. No browser is totally bug free and renders pages as they should be displayed. When I heard that the Mozilla project was aiming for 100% compliance of published standards, I was very pleased. Netscape was once a leader in the browser market, and when they delivered a fully standards compliant browser, they would re-emerge as the leader, and force Microsoft to adopt all the standards.

Alas, the Netscape management team has chosen to ship a buggy product on-time. Some bugs as simple as a spelling correction aren't even being made. This is ridiculous! I believe most people would prefer a quality product that is late, than the other way around.

If the Mozilla project doesn't get up to speed fast, there will be no reason for anyone to stick with them. The Netscape browser is slower than IE and is *not* standards compliant. Many people have waited a long time, and have had high hopes for the Mozilla project, only to be let down. This marks the death of Netscape as a viable browser, and projects a negative (and incorrect) image on the open source and free software communities.

Jon Lehman

I heartily agree with David Flanagan's comments. However, I would take them further and say that I would like Netscape to shut down and die. Netscape is the worst browser I have ever had the misfortune to have to work with. The day Netscape ceases to exist I will drink champagne and my working life will improve tremendously. I would like to dance on Netscape's grave.

Kola Krauze, Webdesigner, Sweden

its slow and buggy and I would never use it. I have tried it every now and then and each time have been dissapointed. I use IE 5.5 and am quite happy with it. I also like the way the toolbars behave and that I can arrange them to only take up one line. Netscape is much slower in loading AND in use/rendering.

Adam

Please do not consider backward compliance with NN4.XX. NN4.XX sucked
rocks in every respect that a browser possibly could. Mozilla/Gecko is a winner.


Do _not_ burn a (relatively/known) buggy product to CD just don't -- save
yourself that embarassment, you've endured enough throught the NN4.XX series.
You have helped create the best browser yet. Ship nothing less

addendum

iCab, Internet Explorer, Konqueror, Lynx and more are all less standard complient than Netscape 6. Where is the petition for those borwsers? This petition is silly.

Jan D.

netscape, I appreciate the resources that you have contributed to the Mozilla
project. It is a shame that you'd consider throwing all that away, which is
what you're doing if you do not implement simple/available fixes in your
release version of Netscape 6.0. You have done so well (WRT the current status
of Mozilla) in developing a stable standards compliant browser. Why not realease
that browser rather than releasing an image of Mozilla from 3 months ago.

brent verner

Hey, remember Lotus 123?

That's where Netscape is headed.

Pick a set of core specifications (like Netscape 4.7 compatibility) and deliver it. Make it stable, fast and useable. Give the users a clear path to the future and deliver on it. Trying to fit 100% of all these standards into the first release is far far too ambitious at this point.

Netscape is loosing market share on an hourly basis and soon will find itself where Lotus 123 was seven years ago.

Chris

Most people I know develop primarily with Netscape because it is a bit more strict about compliance, and if it works on Netscape it'll almost always work on IE. If Netscape 6 is less compliant than 4x, I think you'll find a mass exodus to IE, both for users and developers. Unless, of course, we go for Mozilla and skip Netscape6 altogether.

If hundreds (thousands?) of web pages that are already out there are found not to work in Netscape6, do you actually think people are going to spend the time to make their code "comply" with Netscape's LACK of compliance? That would be completely absurd. Deliver what you promised. Anyone can tell you that a client would rather have a good product delivered late than a shoddy one delivered on schedule.
Fix it.

Glenn Berry

I work for Griffith University's multimedia unit on the Gold Coast, Australia.

The University policy is that we must develop for Netscape 4 or above. This is the biggest pain in the *ss for us as multimedia developers, but it has taught me a few things.

Internet Explorer is not standards compliant. It supports 90-95% of the documented standards, but then extends the standards with new and undocumented features. These features add really "cool" things to web pages, but are really quite dangerous to the development of the web as a whole. Once people become locked into using IE, that becomes a monopoly. Once the dominant browser is IE and everyone develops for IE innovation becomes stifled and no one is interested in anything that isn't IE compliant. This means in the end you have no choice but to use IE to view web pages ("Sorry, your browser doesn't support this web page" messages etc.) I would rather have open, well documented standards that clearly define interoperable functions and protocols (have you ever tried finding anything in the MSDN???)

Netscape on the other hand has, in my opinion, excellent documentation and quite a nice developer support site. The security model of Netscape is also much more reassuring than for IE. Sure, some of the funkier features aren't all working 100%, and it has major problems with Javascript and DHTML, but at least it works to some "standard" that other people can develop for. This leaves the option open for people to use whatever browser they please.

Opera is an excellent cross-platform browser, it doesn't support many of the funkier Javascript features, and DHTML support is also a bit flaky, but it displays standards compliant HTML, and it's frigging fast too. The version without Java support weighs in a little under 2MB for download. (http://www.operasoftware.com)

I seriously hope that Netscape 6 isn't a buggy piece of sh*t like the 4.x series has been, as Netscape already has a bad enough name for bugs and crashing. It would be really refreshing to have a standards compliant browser that actually works correctly 99% of the time!

Gareth Oakes

Netscape used to be the best browser out there.
What is going on now is atrocious. There is no excuse for not complying to standards, especially when the fixes are avaliable. Sorry NS, I'm strictly IE now.

Joshua Reeves

It is unfortunate that both Microsoft and Netscape have chosen to ignore the encouragement of international standards bodies.

Traditionally in any industry, especially one that is so dependant on technology, a great deal of time and effort is spent on standards compliance. Imagine for a moment what would happen if this persistent disregard occured in other industries...

• You wouldn't be able to call you family back home in (insert country here).
  
• You woulnd't be able to watch television broadcasts.
  
• You woulnd't be able to listen to the radio.
  
• Mobiles wouldn't work
  
• You wouldn't be reading this (no Internet)
  

Finnian Burn

My 2c: NS6 is going to be late no matter what -- AND -- what's the point of subscribing to an Open Source model if the results of that effort are not used? It would be lovely if Mozilla were able to continued development of their Open Source browser, and continued to release milestones, nightly builds, pre-releases and the occasional major release completely independently of Netscape.

Hell. This model works for Gimp, Linux etc!

Who needs AOL / NS? Especially if they're not going to play the game.

Andrew Forsberg

I remember a time when I fully supported the Netscape browser...

I wasn't impressed with your Beta 6 release... It seems to me that it's all just a money grab now!

It's the year 2000 maybe it's time for change.

Jason

Quite simply, Internet Explorer 5.5 is less standards compliant than Internet Explorer 5.0. Mozilla is MORE standards compliant than any existing version of Netscape on the market. Who is moving in the right direction?

If you want to talk about open standards, and compliance with industry standards, lets make it fair. Take both browsers (IE and Moz) and compare them point by point on standards compliance. Don't cheat by using Mozilla's bugtrack database, unless Microsoft is willing to open theirs up. Oh.. I forgot Internet Explorer doesn't have bugs does it?

Let them ship the browser so we can SEE our choices.

-- Dennis

Dennis Baker

OK. I don't cary which company makes my browser, as long as I can develop for them as defined by the standards. I am unable to do this in
Netscape. It is a programmers nightmare to be developing inter-browser apps. Seriously, IE: everything is fine. Netscape: crashes, missing functions, missing support, bugs.. Madness.<br />
Please delay the release of the product until it at least supports most of the IE features, rather ones that are defined by standards. I want a browser that works and supports what I need. You need to deliver on that.<br />
-PK, in developer and consumer interests, consumer experience comes from developers.

PK

I agree that there is no perfect browser. However this point is no excuse for releasing a browser that isn't fully backward compatible with previous versions. For example, the bug #49120 stated in David's article (that doesn't allow HTML HyperLink properties to be set until the user interacts with it) is just plain wrong. Some JS code that has run since Netscape 3.x will cease to run on Netscape 6.x. Web developers will have to revisit old JavaScript code to make it compatible with Netscape 6. It is intensive enough to try and code JavaScript for older versions of browsers. But to then have to change old code for new versions of browsers is just absurd -- it multiplies the work load.

I strongly urge Netscape to postpone the release of its newest browser until the browser is at least backward compatible with previous versions of Netscape. Even if the Gecko engine is the best thing since sliced bread, we shouldn't let that take the focus of our attention off the real issues. It is understandable if bugs slip in without being noticed. However many important bugs are documented in the Bugzilla database and there is no need to produce a final version that includes the worst of them.

John Kane

Come on Netscape, this is the reason that I used IE 5.5 to view web pages. And I like MS no better than you do. Developers will use and develop with the compatible browser(s), not the incompatible one(s).

John Akers

The utter lack of knowledge about Netscape 6 within the people who are posting on this site blows me away. I cannot describe my frustration in words. Let's get this straight right off the bat...

Netscape 6/Mozilla utilize THE MOST STANDARDS COMPLIANT rendering engine available in a commercial browser.

Neither IE 4, IE 5, IE 5.5, IE 6 whatever junk that is, Opera or anything else for that matter can compete with the standards compliance of the Gecko rendering engine (the one used in Mozilla/Netscape 6). Now c'mon people we all know there is no such thing as perfect. There is no way a browser is going to be fully 100% standards comliant if not for its impossibility but for the simple reason that the standards aren't always up to par with the cutting edge.

To all the people claiming to be developers afraid of having to redesign owrkarounds for this new version of Netscape 6 I tell you outright, you lie. Any good developer would have seen the performance of the browser before making derisive comments about its "performance" implied by the 5% truthful headline on this article.

For those of you who don't know, and it seems to be an overwhelming majority of you, IE is less standards compliant than Netscape 6/Mozilla. All this time that you have been coding your web sites and projects you have been coding to proprietary MS extensions to W3C standards.

Again, I cannot explain in words the enormous amounts of ignorance concentrated on this page. Any REAL developer KNOWS that Gecko is the superior engine not only in standards compliance but in speed and other factors as well. It's standards compliance has been documented in MANY instances and 3rd party published reports. Not only that but the Gecko engine will be used in upcoming internet appliances as well as on computers so you all better get used to it. Get used to standards compliance.

For those who want to become enlightened, download at nightly build at http://www.mozilla.org and relieve yourself of the burden of ignorance.

Armen Abrahamian

I used to be a high supported of Netscape... even refusing to move to IE cause of my attachments to the Navigator platform. Then for my job I was required to use IE and slowly but surely I was turned and now i can't go back. Especially not with all of these bugs. This is absolutly unaccetable.

Doug G.

I am using N4 for a long time and endure some compatible problem with Windows.I.I can wait N6 for a long time.I don't care wait more longer.I just want to see a killer application born to replace M$ IE.But if N6's developer team act wilfully to push out a immature N6. I think I just say "I'll seriously consider to use IE although it make me feel disgusted but I can't endure a immature software". :(

Frank Chang

For GODDAMN SAKE make a BROWSER.

rsk

Just fix it! Pleeeeeze!

Bill Phillips

Nuff said in the 977 other comments... get on the ball

John Gokey

Please think more than once before you release Netscape 6 !


As a web programmer / developer and an open-source user, I am highly disappointed with Netscape 4.xx series because it has so many bugs that it is really hard not to have it crashing at least once a session. We need a stable browser for all platforms, a browser that can be better than IE and a browser that follows the standards. If Netscape doesn't support the basic stuff that is needed for normal developing/browsing, who is going to develop for it? When are we going to have a version of Netscape that doesn't crash on Linux platform once a day? Guys, please(!), fix the known bugs and everybody will be thankfull; even if the release is delayed, we will wait! Millions of Linux (and other systems') users want to help you compete with Microsoft, so please help us and we will help you!


P.S.: Do you really want us to port "IE" to Linux?

Will Buben

For many years now the one of the highest priorities for IT professionals has been to get the next service pack or next patch so that a product does what it claims to do. A product's integrity and future relies on the ability to perform and function effectively and efficiently. Surely releasing a flawed and inferior release of N6 will only add to Microsoft’s strangle hold.

Geoff G

For many years now the one of the highest priorities for IT professionals has been to get the next service pack or next patch so that a product does what it claims to do. A product's integrity and future relies on the ability to perform and function effectively and efficiently. Surely releasing a flawed and inferior release of N6 will only add to Microsoft’s strangle hold.

Geoff G

It's really, really simple: we've been waiting for a truly standards compliant browser for a couple of years now. You're almost but not quite there. C'mon Netscape---don't choke in the final stretch. We can wait the extra days, weeks, or (god forbid) even months it'll take you to do the final cleanup, but we CAN'T live with a buggy browser. Especially not one that can be crashed by valid JavaScript.

Do the right thing. You know what it is.

Greg Phillips

Its crunch time. Everything depends on N6. Linux depends on N6. Open Source depends on N6. A superbly stable N6 that is fully, not almost fully, but fully standards compliant is necessary to convince the world that its safe to not buy Microsoft. Let the marketing people win this battle and you lose the war... no, WE lose the war. I can't convince users to accept Linux without a stable, standards compliant browser. I can't convince management to accept Open Source if the mother-of-open-source-projects fails to deliver stability.

Richard Draucker

We've waited a long time for 6.0, what's another month or two to make Netscape more stable, faster, smaller, and more bug free? You need to release a great product now, or Netscape won't be around much longer. Please don't let us live in a Microsoft world. Don't fall to thier level and release buggy products to be close to on time. Please listen to your developers. Thank you!

Cindy Z

Please take time and make a stable, secure, and bug free product. I will be glad to wait until it is completeled. Let's not go down to Microsoft's level and release buggy products just to be close to on time.

Larry Z

I used to be a loyal Netscape user until the initial release on version 4. Constant crashes and the release of IE 4 quickly changed my browser preferences on my computer. MS is by no means a perfect product, they have a bad habit of allowing developers to write bad code. For instance missing a closing table tag will cause content to be displayed incorrectly on Netscape products, as it should be, however this will not cause a problem on IE. I was very happy when upon your first beta release of version 6, your announcement of standards compliance. Yet I am now extremely disheartened by the fact that this does not seem to be the case, and there is little concern on fixing these shortcomings before going gold. Please reconsider your position on this. As a developer I understand the concept of a freeze date, but considering your timeliness to market is pretty much shot all ready, it might be a better idea to at least wait until compliance issues have been sorted through before release.

Greg Groth

I completely agree -- WebStandards needs to be a focus for any popular open-source browser. Netscape/Mozilla was supposed to be the choice to support standards. What happened?

Aaron Swartz

Maybe if Netscape concentrated on the basics and didn't try to compete with Microsoft by adding excessive features (that basically nobody uses), they would actually get it right!

Chris Cox

As a web developer I am constantly annoyed by Netscape's habit of not sticking to the standards.

DHTML and JavaScript is elementary (relatively speaking) to implement for Internet Explorer, but have always got to be re-done for compatibility with Netscape, which means double the work. And when one considers Netscape's lack of proper CSS support, one is just about ready to rip one's hair out.

Why can't Netscape produce a quality product such as Internet Explorer, that follows the standards and that makes web development easier for us, rather than insisting on handling everything in such a different manner.

Haroon Chowdhary

How about we let Netscape do it their way and we use the browser we like best. When no one uses Netscape then maybe they will make their browser compliant.

But why does Netscape have to be compliant? Is this not a democracy. Can they not make their software their way?

Hey, I got a great idea. How about all you negative comment people start your own software company and write your own compliant browser. Oh yeah, thats right, you people don't know how to program. You only know how to bitch and moan.

SpotPerkins

It's simple Netscape. If you're 100% compliant I'll use NS6 as the basis for the interface I'm developing for NASA. If not, I'll go with another product. You either are, or you're not. You either deliver on the Mozilla promise, or you don't. You decide.

John Le'Brecage

I find the suggestion that Netscape would release yet another buggy, non-standards compliant browser extremely frustrating. I, like so many others out there, spend a large amount of time redeveloping perfectly good pages so they work around all the problems in current Netscape browsers. This time could be better spent developing higher quality content and functionality

Netscape has held us back long enough, and I only hope this latest error of judgement proves to be a fatal one, so we can all get back on with the business of creating quality web content.

Miles

Netscape has been the bane of developers for quite awhile. It's also one of the least stable commercial programs I've ever used. I for one will be glad when it's dead and gone and web developers can go back to concentrating on content and design rather then making the 3% of the population who use Netscape happy.

Eli Blac

Shape up Netscape, you've touted 6.0 as a standards compliant browser from the start, so why all the hesitation all of a sudden to make it so.

You'll draw more flak from breaking compliance for developers than you will for delaying the browser yet again, which we're all used to already anyways.

R.D.

I'm amazed by how much effort my company has to spend in trying to deal with standards non-compliance. We've basically stopped at this point, since our tracking shows such almost everyone uses IE. I once thought NS6 would bring sanity to the situation... maybe I should have looked closer if, what I'm hearing now, is true.

David Whatley
www.play.net
dw@play.net

David Whatley

Nail in the coffin...

Evan

I whole heartedly support every facet of this argument. The Netscape project has failed, with the failure most accurately summarised as 'Too little too late'. IE is truly the better browser. What makes me angry now is that because of all the DOJ problems MS has had, we are unlikely to see an IE for *NIX, which is a tradgedy.

What concerns me a lot more though is WHY the project has failed. This could be the first truly dangerous dent in the reputation of open source development. Answers will be needed, fingers will be pointed. Could it simply be a lack of number of developers?

AndrewH

I whole heartedly support every facet of this argument. The Netscape project has failed, with the failure most accurately summarised as 'Too little too late'. IE is truly the better browser. What makes me angry now is that because of all the DOJ problems MS has had, we are unlikely to see an IE for *NIX, which is a tradgedy.

What concerns me a lot more though is WHY the project has failed. This could be the first truly dangerous dent in the reputation of open source development. Answers will be needed, fingers will be pointed. Could it simply be a lack of number of developers?

AndrewH

We are developers and speak with some considerable experience. We have just completed a two-person year development cycle for a new web-based service that uses lots of Javascript, CGI, PERL, DHTML, etc. We have found Explorer to be a breeze to work with.

Most of our work has been in developing the extra code that makes Netscape work. I say work, not work beautifully. At one point we were in favour of dropping Netscape compatability. As it is, the implementation is cludgy at best. But it does work, thanks not to Netscape but to our considerable three-month effort to make it work.

I, personally, would be happy if Netscape just went away. And it used to me my browser of choice.

John Crittenden

I think Netscape 6's standard compliance is enough for today's use. I do really hope Netscape to release its 6.0 within this year. And then release 6.0x to enhance standard compliancy.

If you say Netscape6 pr3's a:hover is broken so Netscape6 is not standards compliance, you should try some nightly builds.

Jerome

Dear god, these guys don't release a browser in 2 years and now they decide to rush and put out something that's less compliant than IE4? Either get it right or don't release. I don't care if Mozilla "gets it right" later. The average user doesn't know what Mozilla is and will be using whatever Netscape puts out. Please put us developers out of our misery and don't release YET ANOTHER version of Netscape that I have to spend 2x the time making workarounds for.

Sureshot

Please, please fix the bugs before going gold...

Mark

Netscape, come on!

I wanna start using the 'scape once again, but dammit you have to do this...for all of us!! Windows 2000 was postponed for like ever, and look at how well that turned out. ALSO, you must do the self installing plugins deal that IE does. Highly cool!

Greco Maldonado

What was the battle with Microsoft all about? If you going to release a buggy software when you have all the resources to make it a good one, I believe you should shut up and let MS do their stuff.
I have been using NSPR2 and PR3 and am very impressed with it in all aspects, so I believe you owe it to yourself and us to allow a little extra time and do a decent release.
We have waitied a long long time for NS6, a little more is not going make any difference. Please make it right and give you, Netscape, a true fighting chance in the browser market again.

thanks,

Ifte.

Iftekhar Amjad

Please fix all known standard-compliant bugs before release of Netscape Navigator 6.0. Netscape Navigator used to be my favorite browser, but now I know that not all Web sites are rendered correctly in Netscape, so I use IE for browsing. I also use IE while I am developing Web sites and then check it later for bugs in NN. Please make our jobs easier.

Sandra Carlquist

Come on! Sheesh! Oh no! We can't put in a little extra effort to even TRY to release a BETTER product than anyone else. Then we would'nt be able to WHINE about being the underdogs, and how mistreated and we are and how the big bad OTHER BROWSER is so unfairly marketed and bundled. KILL THE BUGS FOR ONCE! DO IT!

Scott P

Very relevant and true points. I absolutely agree.

Eugen Marculescu

Very relevant and true points. I absolutely agree.

Eugen Marculescu

After abandoning Netscape browsers, for the most part, after 4.x was released, as a developer I was looking forward to N6 and the hope for a more compliant browser. It appears I will have to *wait* for the Mozilla release, if ever, to see that come to fruition. I urge the N6 developers to follow David's suggestions and release N6 as a beta and work with the Mozilla team to correct the current bugs as described. Give us poor developers a break here folks.

Phil Constant

I'm dissapointed about this. I thought the whole point of releasing a new product was to improve upon the previous one. I guess I'm wrong. What's the point of releasing a product that fixes old problems, but introduces new ones? I understand that no product is going to be perfect right off the bat, but please! Can we have a good netscape? Is that too much to ask?

The most vexing issue is that we have fixes that *could* be applied but are not... Grr.. oh well, I guess it's back to using the cool features of IE5.x and lumping NS6 in the pack with NS and IE 3-4... sigh 8^(

-James

James Woods

As a developer I am committed to developing site that work in all platforms...don't make my job difficult.

Samantha

Please wait. Offer a stable and standards compliant browser. I'm growing to like IE and that scares me. You don't need the bad press right now, or do you care?

Jeff Leadsman

Deja vu. For years I've ben waiting for Netscape to fight back
and give us a decent, standards-compliant browser to match IE5.
Now, reading what such a respected expert as Dave Flanagan has
to say about the state of the upcoming release of Netscape 6,
I can't help but have that deja vu feeling.

It all started with Communicator 4. I was a loyal Netscape user
back then, and I can clearly remember downloading Communicator 4
to test all the new cool stuff (you know, CSS, DHTML, HTML4),
only to find out their implementation was miserably buggy or
non-standard or both -- you coded according to the W3C specs,
but Navigator didn't do was was supposed to do or showed things
wrong. I was dismayed. Some months later, a friend of mine
downloaded IE4 and told me it was worth a try... even for such a
furiously loyal Netscape user as I was. I did give it a try, and
gasped when all of the new stuff I was struggling with on Navigator
ran without a hiccup on IE4. I knew it was a turning point in the
browser wars.

And then came the news about the Mozilla project, and the opening
of their source, and suddenly I had hopes again. And started waiting.
And waited. And waited for two years... and then, after all that
time, they are going do it again. Another buggy and non-compliant
product released to destroy their reputation among developers.

I cannot understand why. Marketing reasons? Nah, it can't be, they
currently don't profit from their browser, do they? This makes me
wonder if there is a legion of pointy-haired bosses running Netscape
at this moment.

Fare thee well, Netscape. Most probably I will never see you again
on my PC, nor will our clients.

Marco A. Bravo M.

I believe that I speak for all webmasters web-wide when I say standards compliance is a must in all browsers. I hate nothing more than writing up a very nice, good looking page, and have it completely ruined by a browser like netscape 6.
A buggy netscape 6 will be the crowning point of netscape's downfall.

tom

I'm just going to use Mozilla's releases from now on and forget that Netscape ever existed. They want to release a standards compliant browser which is not standards compliant!

ps, Mozilla shouldn't use the "classic" theme by default!

Nick Read

Many of us have been Netscape loyalist for many years. We have stuck with and defended Netscape even through the worst of times. One reason we have pushed and stuck with Netscape is its' compliance to standards. We have pushed Netscape on our clients, our employers, and our friends. We stuck with it even when we had to pay for it to get advanced versions, even while IE was free.

You MUST stay the course in terms of compliance.

If, in fact, there is a rush to release a non-compliant version to get CDs burned, then I implore you to include a automatic SmartUpdate that will activate upon installation that will automatically install a new standards compliant version, presuming one will be available.

Please, stay the course when it comes to design standards. We love Netscape. We would be heartbroken and devastated if you break our faithful relationship.

James A Grant, Internet Commerce Designs

Lack of standards compliance is holding things back. But we know this.

Stephen De Gabrielle

Please.... Netscape is on its deathbed, releasing a buggy browser is the worst mistake to make right now! I am a designer/developer and have supported Netscape since the beginning, please don't make me switch to IE or have to say to my clients, "Don't use Netscape, it's just not a good piece of software."

Elisa Del Vecchio

Releasing software that refuses to conform to standards simply because "Marketing" says so is a terrible practice that has given us things like Windows. It's insulting to the developers of the Mozilla project, as well as to any software developer. At this point, I think I'll probably spend a few dollars, and buy Opera; though I have always supported Netscape, to intentionally release the software in a buggy state (esp. after the length of time that they have been waiting) shows a blatant arrogance and disregard for their users.

Mike Murray

Leave the lizard alone man. What do you want, a Netscape that aspires to standards compliance or an IE that wants to own the standard?

Contribute some code and quit your bitchin!

Murray Barton

Listen to the man and fix it. 'Nuff said.

Eliot Stock

As a webmaster my plea is simple - standards please. Nothing more, nothing less.

Allan Moult

Netscape needs to keep up with IE. There should be regulations so that both platforms function the same. I know many designers are tired of having to deal with all of Netscape's problems. I like a variety over a monopoly, but not if Netscape can not keep up with the demands of today's internet market. Too many designers and builders have to waste large amounts of hours to get a project to work in both browers. The browers must learn to comply to the same code in order for there to be any progress. Netscape has to stop trying do things differently and keep up with current code in order to survive.

nivek nydlog

Too little too late. Get the Netscape application crap off of it and make the web browser we need on multiple platforms.

Tim Frick

I am a internet support technician. In that capacity I find it ludicrous for a browser to be released that is not even close to compling with open standards. For me this will only be generating many problems with the end user when they use the browser and are unable to view and navigate all sites they want. This will call many problems for the tech support industry as well, in which the end users will be calling irate because of problems they are having with a site. This will be something that we can not fix, except by telling them to use another browser. This could cause many customers to decide to switch ISP's because they do not understand what is going on and blame the ISP. Netscape by not complying with the standards is only forcing people who want full functionality in their browser to use internet explorer. This defeats the whole point of choice and personal decisions that is suppossed to be inherent in the internet.

James Demarest

Releasing Netscape now might be good in the short term, but after people realise that its a buggy, uncompliant product they won't use it anymore and it may turn them off Netscape forever. If you want to win back some market share then the only way to do it is by having a quality product. Like it or not, IE 5.5 is streets ahead of Netscape 4.72 and is streets ahead of NS 6 ... until all the bugs are fixed.

Tristan B

I use Netscape for all my web based work/play. I run Linux FULL time. I do not use Windows at all, at work, or home. Netscape is the only web browser I can use. Please ensure that this product will be of high quality and meet standards. I am counting on it too be good.

Thank you.

Jeff Neuffer

i have been forced to tell all my friends to stop using Netscape so that they may see the enhanced features of my web sites that actually function properly in Internet Explorer. Netscape is an extreme thorn in my side, and if they would simply adhere to the standards that IE does, the world would be a better place, and the company would not be destined for exile from the market. Netscape is a joke in it's current form.

zane jacobson

Because of its non-compatibility, Netscape is rapidly becoming the Apple of the browser world. Now, it's not that Apple makes a bad product, some would say it is superior to Microsoft. The problem is that Apple is not willing to use platforms that the majority of the world uses. That leaves them out-of-step and rapidly running out of market-share. If you want your product to continue to hold an increasingly smaller portion of users you go ahead and release Netscape 6 now and worry about fixing it up when it is convenient for you.

Terry Harvey

I have been a long time, highly loyal user of Netscape, virtually as long as I've had access to the World Wide Web. The idea that the newest edition of my favorite browser would be released virtually incomplete, despite the warnings of bugs, and the presence of fixes, strikes me as very disenheartening. I've resisted the IE line of browsers, as I dislike their interface, and quite simply feel more comfortable just USING Netscape. However, if Netscape 6.0 is as incompatable as it seems, I, and countless others like me, will utilize a competing browser simply out of practicality. Please, take a little extra time to finalize your browser. You will have earned both the appreciation and the loyalty of countless users.

Thank you for you time,
Brent Logan
UVa School of Medicine, Class of 2004

Brent Logan

This is no different than any other netscape release. They ignore the standards make their own, then rush a release.

They have lost the browser wars, which they could have won and now they are making the same mistakes as before. I wish they had have learned, they are about to blow their last chance to offer a decent browser to the community. If they blow this it will be the end of any chance of competing against MS.

well I guess they will do what they did last time and claim that MS doing the integration thing that lost them the war. All of those who know better will know that this has nothing to do with it, it is that netscape have not release a better browser for years.

Get your act together netscape, your about to lose even more of your dwindling market.

Stewart James

As a web developer, I have had to struggle with niggling incompatibilities between IE and Netscape. I'm sure many other developers have had the same experience of fighting to get it working in just those two browsers, any other browser be damned.

A new major browser, with its own set of quirks (different to both IE and older versions of Netscape) will just increase the challenge exponentially. If the errors were the same as old Netscape, I'd pretty much just be writing for two browsers. But fundamental bugs such as have been recorded will require code that is incompatible with the two main browsers.

Please, just release the fixes that have already been made! Many people don't upgrade their browsers often, and if the first version they get is buggy, those buggy browsers may just stay with them for years.

The developer community can oppose this by simply refusing to develop specifically for it unless requested. If users find many sites unusable, they will not use the browser. And then maybe Netscape will reconsider its policy.

David Cummins

Simple. If Netscape 6 is a buggy mess, there will be no 6.1. IE 5.5 is too good, and has too much of a lead.

JK

Jeff Kirvin

I am a Linux user, and in the past there has only been 1 browser available: Netscape. It has been dodgy right from the beginning, and I always hoped that either you guys would get it right eventually, or a third browser would enter the fray. Mozilla is a great engine, and because they are opensource etc, they will fix all the bugs, nomatter how long it takes. If you read the list of bugs the reporter has mentioned - they are *not* insignificant. On my machine at work, and at home, I have installed Mozilla, Netscape 6 pr, Opera and Konquerer. You are now not the only alternative to IE - there is real competition for the first time in a long time. You are making a mistake not fixing these problems. If you really want to win back the market, at least invest time and money to making the browser stable, uncrashable. The full complience with web standards could wait until Netscape 6.1, but I will be using Mozilla if Netscape is unstable, and so will many other people. Windows users will just keep using IE.

Luke Worthy

I guess the people who ruined Netscape the first time are still in charge.

Ric McGredy

NETSCAPE or maybe it is AOL ? How in the world can you hype standards compliance? Come on get it right! I am sick of buggy broswers.

Fix it! It will do your rep no good to release something more buggy than IE 5.5!

Mark Holm

As a developer, standards compliancey across browser platforms is essential to timely development. Our current solution to this dilemma has been to drop Netscape altogether. Version 6 of Netscape is their last chance, in my eyes, to compete in this market, and the most important question is whether or not it is standards compliant. If they put this browser out without taking care of this aspect, they really need to stop wasting our time.

Mark E. Smith

Incompatible browsers break the Web. Please don't let this happen!

Tom Bullers

Yesyesyes. I am sick of having to redevelop web-hacks to cope with Netscape. Please do not release v6 until it is at least as standards-compliant as IE5.5

Thankyou.

Ben Gracewood

Basically it comes to this.
If Netscape 6 doesn't fix bugs that don't exists in there early version, web sites will stop supporting it.
If sites don't support it, users will stop using it.
Which is a lot worse than having the competition release a new version.


I am a loyal Netscape user, but not see my site will overrides my loyalty

Paul Meisel

Paul Meisel

As developers and technologists, we all benefit by being able to bring dynamic, usable, and trouble free applications to the web for clients of all varieties. The more time we spend developing workarounds, watching browsers crash, and explaining to clients why they cannot have a feature due to a bug that appears occasionally on one platform or browser, the less time we can spend accomplishing these goals. Releasing an incomplete or unstable version of a major browser will cost us all dearly.

David Gantenbein

I have been using Netscape web browsers since version 1.0 for several reasons including the availability for numerous operating systems, and I have been very impressed by the work done by the Mozilla Project. I find it astounding that the Netscape engineers are willing to risk their reputation by releasing a version of Navigator with so many outstanding bugs. Standards compliance among web browsers has always been a sore spot for me personally, and if Navigator 6.0 does not implement the standards, it is not worth using. I am not a fan of Internet Explorer, and it is appalling how Microsoft tried to force the use of their browser. It will be a sad, sad day when IE is considered the superior browser especially considering its laughable support for multiple platforms.

Patrick Hartling

And so the battle is lost...
As a web developer of many years, I had long hoped for the day when I could stop wasting time on finding fixes for browser bugs and workarounds for the incompatibilities between Netscape and Internet Explorer. Instead of time being wasted on such things, time could be spent on innovation which would be truly cross platform. Netscape 6 promised so much - a brave new world of standards compliance. And now, what would've been Netscape's ultimate achievement has been thrown away, all on the word of a few marketing gurus.

No one doubts that Netscape 6 is long overdue. Realistically it should've been released years ago. But we put that aside and continued to be forgiving of the slippage as there was so much promise - not only standards compliance but an open codebase too! And now that open codebase is being shut down. Not literally, not yet anyway, but by virtue of the fact new developments, fixes and tweaks, are being quarantined from the Netscape 6 release.

I can only hope that Netscape/AOL realize that they will gain nothing by this action. Unless developers openly embrace new browsers, it is pointless in releasing them. That being so, why release a browser to which there are known bugs and incompatibilities, and to which developers will likely actively avoid? I'm sure Netscape would say that they will fix the problem in a later version. This however only pollutes the browser market further which leads to more time being spent on avoiding the nuances of certain browser versions.

Get it together Netscape/AOL. You won't be helping anyone by a premature release. In the mean time, I shall continue to dream of Mozilla...

And the beast shall come forth surrounded by a roiling cloud of vengeance. The house of the unbelievers shall be razed and they shall be scorched to the earth. Their tags shall blink until the end of days.
from The Book of Mozilla, 12:10 - Netscape 4.75

Jeff Keena

You guys have a moral obligation to fix these issues. I would much rather a better product that is late than one that does not meet expectations. You guys are getting really close, don't give up now! Help the industry move forward with a strong release.

Graham Stephenson

I can't believe that Netscape is trying even harder to make IE the only browser worth having.

Chris Estes

Please just release it asis! That way when your browsershare drops below it's current 11% (StatMarket) we can all stop supporting/swearing at what has been a buggy, non-standards, incompatible POS since the beginning.

Mark Jones

In a nutshell: be standards compliant or don't bother. I will not allow (much less encourage) the use of Netscape in our organization unless it is standards compliant. Netscape is playing catch-up and to be honest, this type of thing shows why...

Tim Ferrell

Please, the software has been in development for so long; just take a bit more time and do it right. The web will be a better place once there is a truly standards compatible browser on the market.

Phillip Fox

Netscape 6 is already really late. It would be better to make it a little bit later than to ship it with major standards problems. If Netscape is planning to get 6.1 out there really darn quick, it could maybe be okay to ship broken, but I'm uneasy about it. Netscape 6 ought to work correctly with standard web pages, plus it should decently render pages written for Netscape 4. The worst possible thing would be for Netscape 6 to have its own oddball quirks that must be coded for. (I eagerly wait for the day when web sites no longer bother to detect what kind of browser the user has, but just cheerfully serve up standard code and expect the browser to do the right thing.

Steve R. Hastings

If Netscape continues with this course of action (not fixing standards compliance bugs before release), it will be an absolute disaster for Netscape and the whole industry. I implore Netscape to reconsider their position.

Netscape, we're relying on you to do the right thing.

Jim Saiya

As developer I find the reasoning of Netscape management completely irresponsible and inexcusable. One would think that market forces will take care of that attitude. I'm working with IE for now.

Peter Ponca

I think it's sad that due to the past lack of compliance issues, my browser of choice is no longer Netscape, but IE. Most of my clients agree with me. The first phase of development for any web-based product is inevitably done in the 'trouble-free' IE browser and then ported back to Netscape as time and money allows. Failure to 'keep up' just doesn't make good business sense.

Michele Wickham

I've been doing web development for over 4 years now. I've struggled with Netscape since version 1.0 and I.E since version 3.0. I'm tired of the game I have to play to get a page to consistently render between different browsers and versions. Emerging standards such as XML/CSS/DOM are all attempts to separate the content from the formatting which would make every web developer's life easier in the long-run. I agree sometimes the standards are vague but not supporting basic API functions is inexscusable. Either adopt and support standards or accept the fact that your product will not be accepted or used.

Jon Prather

Our company maybe produces twelve websites a year and so far we've been force to make our sites work with Netscape 4+ which has not always been easy. Please make Netscape 6 at least as compliant as IE5, so we can focus on making great websites instead of getting stuff to work with whatever browser.

Douwe M. Osinga

I can't imagine the reasoning behind condemning Netscape 6 to be yet another non-compliant browser. Perhaps Netscape might offer an explanation? It must have been a deliberate decision. As a designer and programmer, I find it inexcusable.

Nicole J. LeBoeuf-Little

The standards-support of Mozilla is what makes it worthwhile. Netscape 6 is pointless without it. Those at AOL should be mindful that computer gurus who get excited about this sort of topic hold the sway of a great many computer novices, who are AOL's primary target audience. These concerns should not be ignored.

Chris

Netscape has already slipped far behind in the browser wars. As a website developer I find any version of netscape tedious and frustrating to use.

Get it right this time or forwever be banished from mainstream use.

JV

Jamie Vuyk

When I first got the internet a few years ago I was forced to use IE and didn't mind it but a friend urged me to use NN. I came to like it and favor it over IE. It was better, safer, faster, had more features etc. But then IE came out with 2 browsers before NN was able to come out with even 1! I fought it for the longest time even though I knew it was better in almost any way I could find I stayed loyal to NN. But latley it seems that the new one will never come out and for what I do with web pages right now I'm having a lot of trouble adapting it to NN because it's not up to standards. I've finally given up on NN since the new one has been such a disappointment. When I'm in WIN I use IE and when I get Linux back I'll be (probably) using KDE's new browser if it's as good as they boast it is. I've given up on NN. I've always said NN was better and fought for it but now it's not worth it.

Chris Boden

Comply with the standards or become irrelavant.

Web developers can make a case for using any browser which fully supports standards, even if it's not IE. Otherwise, don't bother.

J. Bauer

Mr. Flanagan's book "JavaScript: The Definitive Guide" is my JavaScript bible. It is very well written and easy to read. If Mr. Flanagan says Netscape 6.0 needs better ECMAScript support, then I say so too!

Please AOL, make Netscape 6.0 a kick-ass product, not an also-ran.

Ralph Howes

I'd also like to state the following; If you would like to have me as a Netscape user, please support open standards.

It's the least you can do.

Heimo Hakkeri

When I first started coding in HTML 4 years ago, I used Netscape exclusively. IE3 had just come out and was not widely used, and life was good. Then came the browser wars and the bane on devleopers we call cross-borwser DHTML. IE and Netscape were the battlers and we were the casualties.

Netscape's stubborn refusal to accept standards has driven me further and further away with each point release, to which now I don't even care about version 6.0. It will be buggy, it will not be stanrads compliant, and it will make more work for developers like me who have to spend so much time figuring out why our standards complaint HTML and JavaScripts don't work, and concoct ways around it.

It's no wonder IE won the browser war. You know when you code something the right way, it will look exactly like, or extremely close to what you want, in IE. Netscape 4.0 is, and always has been, the one to worry about.

I'm sick of it.

I know many developers who share my feelings.

Hey Netscape, get compliant or get lost!!!!!

-JF

Jeff Fox

It makes no sense to release a broken product. To do so decreases
market share. Since the brand itself is the biggest thing left to
market at Netscape, releasing a browser with standards compliance
problems will relegate Netscape to obscurity.

Cameron Kellough

I never truly expected that Netscape would get with the program despite how optimistic most people were. Perhaps trying to convince everyone who still uses Netscape to delete it entirely from their systems would be an easier task than getting an acceptable browser from Netscape.

Michael Brown

I work on several systems in a day (win95/NT, linux and solaris) and I find it very convienient to use Netscape simply because it is a cross-platform web-browser. I would hate to see a much awaited netscape release 6.0 fail the standards compliance merely to meet a deadline.

I would rather wait for some more time than work with a buggy web-browser.

Hemang

As a staunch Netscape supporter and user since 0.9, and abhor using anything from M$, I hate to see any release of Netscape which is a step backwards.

Get it standards compliant, and get it released!

Most importantly get us developers out of having to deal with Netscape 4.x fiascos with compliancy, period.

There simply isn't room in the reputation and credibility arena for anything less.

Ken Knull

I think Netscape is making a mistake here. It won't be just the developers who are pulling out and not supporting Netscape, but a lot of users will start to lose faith in using Netscape when pages mess up and say that they only support IE/Mozilla/Opera/Lynx/etc. :)

Netscape complains it doesn't get a share of the browser market cause MS puts IE right into the OS, but then it decides to put out a product that it very well knows has bugs and is going to drive both web developers to drop support and users to consider switching. Looks like they're going for a long walk off a short pier.

Mark Estey

Speaking as a web programmer who spends hours of time testing on three different platforms and 5 different browsers I URGE you, Netscape, to realign your priorites. Browser compliance shouldn't be the %50 of my daily job that it amounts to now. The standards that are published are there for a reason. With the in-house coding power that you have, it seems as though this should never have been a problem. But now, even with the combined power of your in-house people and the rest of the world who are working on Mozilla you STILL can't get it right. This is, in a word, inexcusable. Please rethink your position.

Brad McCrorey

I never truly expected that Netscape would get with the program despite how optimistic most people were. Perhaps trying to convince everyone who still uses Netscape to delete it entirely from their systems would be an easier task than getting an acceptable browser from Netscape.

Michael Brown

A significant attraction of Navigator 6 is the promise of standards compliance.
Without it, the motivation to upgrade Navigator, or to stick with Navigator at all, is greatly diminished.

Frank Woodward

Anything less standards compliant than IE5.5 is NOT helpful to any of us. Netscape please do not release Navigator 6.0 until it is respectably compliant. If you can't make it compliant, do us all a favour and don't release it at all.

Peter Fagan

back in 95 when i started coding in java, i swore i would never write another line of code (jscript, javascript or java) for web browsers after an incredibly
frustrating 6 week applet project/war.

5 years later, i found myself writing another (huge) applet, and expected _something_ to have gotten better. instead, things have gotten worse. app and os crashing, deviant vm implementations and assorted stupidities (to wit: a code signing model that's lexically scoped). Netscape has never been standards compliant, and never will be.

back in 95, ie wasn't even an issue, it's java was crappy(ier), it's javascript
was nearly non-functional, and it crashed constantly, nobody used it. Today, Netscape has filled microsoft's place at the bottom nicely, as ie has risen to the top.

i beg netscape to hang up it's gloves and cede the browser wars to microsoft. that way i won't have to re-write every damn thing i do for the 30% of the market that is stuck with netscape.

McClain Looney

Dear Netscape Marketing Department:
If you would like to have me as a Netscape user, please support open standards.

Roger Wong

Netscape,

Lip service will get you nowhere. Do it right the first time.

Adam Talmadge

You never should frozen the code. The freeze should have taken place after standards compliance had been achieved!

Unfreeze the code. Don't print the disks. Distribute this as a beta, but don't release another partially compliant browser to the market! There are already enough of those!

Standards compliance is not something that you can give up on. Look at another segment of the computer industry. How many "99% IBM Compatible" computers do you see these days? If you're going to do it at all, do it right.

Alan Kantz

I'm a designer, not a programmer. I waste many many hours trying to get my designs to function properly in Netscape. I'm looking forward to getting rid of my javascript booleans - if (ns) then.... With a venue as large as the web, standards are a necessity. Standards exist. It would be negligence on the part of Netscape to ignore them.

Joe Moak

I can already see the nightmares to come. If Netscape does end up releasing such an inferior product.

Hank McCauley

I have invested a great deal of time converting a web application to comply with the W3C DOM. Everything works great under IE5 however Netscape Navigator 6.0's lack of support for numerous DOM capabilities and outright bugs have prevented me from completing the port. I thought Netscape 4 was a mess, Netscape 6 is an unstable disaster.

Releasing a buggy product means that all web developers will have to cope with those bug and instability for some time. Even with newer releases, those that purchased PCs preinstalled with Netscape 6 will in most cases refuse to download subsequent releases.

Ken Mori

Please, just *one* standards compliant browser?!?

Thomas Trelvik

As a developer, I waste hundreds of hours per year trying to make Netscape work, nothing fancy, just trying to make workarounds to make NS function due to lack of standards compliance. Time is money. Its nearing the point when we will drop support for Netscape due to small marketshare/high cost of development. I, for one, would actually be glad to see that at this point. While I don't like having only one choice of product, I would much prefer to develop for IE because, put quite simply, it works better. It does what it is supposed to do with (Java)ECMAscript, CSS, etc. I want a competitor to IE, but I want one that works at least as well, or I'd prefer if you just put out the cat, turn off the lights, and call it a day. In the long run, if v6.0 is not standards compliant, and continues to cost money in additional development time, we will drop support for NS, and once this happens enough, Netscape will finally die. V6.0 is you last chance, not just with us, but with a lot of developers out there. If you screw this up, its over.

William Byrd

What do people want when looking at web pages? They want to see the page *correctly*. If Navigator 6.0 won't show pages correctly, people will go to other browsers. I'll use IE 5.X if Nav 6 is full of bugs. So, what's the advantage to rushing out a product that's flawed?

Does Netscape really think people will forgive them for bugs, or are they just tarnishing their reputation for quality even more by failing standards compliance? How do they expect me to trust them when I have other free alternatives out there? I just don't see the rationale in their (current) plan.

William Melick

Please take the time to fix the bugs before releasing NS6.

David Kahle

It just blows my mind that even 6 years after releasing Navigator 1.0, Netscape (AOL) is still perfectly unable to come up a fully standard-compliant browser!With an over 80% Internet Explorer market share, this will certainly be the fatal blow to Netscape. IE may not be perfect (and you may resent Bill Gates), but it represents a far better development platform than Netscape. Perhaps things would have been different if some people had cared a little more and ca$hed a little less.

RIP, Navigator. 1994-2000. Thou shall be remembered as "The big browser that couldn't".

Christian Vachon

I would like to take David Flanagan's request one step further, and ask that all developers renounce all support and/or use of the Netscape product, barring the complete implementation and compliance of open standards.

Ever since their second generation browser, I have found more and more reasons of disgust toward the Netscape product. Why do they have to make me hate them even more?

Al Kahler

It's fortunate that we have so many standards to choose from! :-)

Tom Phoenix

Netscape, defer the release for a couple of weeks and
fix the bugs. The developer community will be thankful
for your responsible behaviour.

Nigel Stewart

IE is already the better browser in almost all respects, but when it comes to standards compliance it ain't perfect. One area that Netscape could be better than IE is standards compliance. Why can't Netscape realise that this is a potential opportunity that may allow them to grab back some market share from IE? If Netscape Nav had better support for web standards, a lot more developers would develop for it and it recommend it to users of their sites. This would surely do more for Netscape's market share than stuffing their browser full of crap consumerism features (shopping channels, etc).

Chris Naunton

I use Linux, and as such, have almost no choice but to use Netscape as my browser. I have yet to see any other serious alternative that I can use for my daily web surfing needs. The thought that Netscape's next version browser will be a bug-laden standards-violating monstrosity frightens me somewhat. It will let Microsoft win, and then the monopoly lock we all began to fear when they started shipping IE with Windows will come true. With no serious browser competing against them, MS will be able to dictate the course of the HTML "standard", relegating the W3C to the status of an organization full of sound and fury, but whose actions signify nothing. I don't think anyone wants that, least of all Netscape. But that's the effect their actions are going to have anyway.

Rafael R. Sevilla

I am a web applications developer and your failure to release a version of Netscape Navigator that is at the same level as IE5 in terms of standards compliance is causing me and everybody in the industry a lot of grief. Our clients want to leave their users the choice as of which browser to install in their machines, but as long as Netscape Navigator doesn't match IE, all these people are being forced to use IE5.

This is a terrible situation, these people are using IE not because it is their choice or because it is better, but because their favorite browser cannot match standards like IE can. Until this situation is solved I will distribute the link to the O'Reilly story to all my clients so they understand why they are forced to stay using IE5+.

Pedro A. Vera-Perez

I can appreciate that the engineers at Netscape actually want Navigator 6 to see the light of day and not be held up by endless bug fixes and feature requests. But there is also the danger of serious backlash, as demonstrated here, if they don't comply with standards. Make the next release a beta release and take care of the final standards issues. Be on the right side of this issue, instead of opening yourself to the marketing powers at Microsoft which will exploit the fact that Navigator is not a standards-compliant browser. And worse, don't become the bane of my existence. The bad taste will linger longer than the time it takes to implement the bug fixes.

Timothy O'Connor Fraser

I thought Netscape 6 might finally restore Netscape as a useable product with some hope of competing with IE. Obviously, the company is determined to ensure that that does not happen. That is very sad, indeed.

Geoff Mitchell

Netscape 4.x worked reasonably well and since I am a Linux user I have had no choice, not until Mozilla Milestone 17 came. Mozilla is today fully usable, and at least development is leading somewhere. Netscape 6, on the other hand, will never be a choice as long as they continue package thier browser with all those commercial applications. Even if they didn't there is no reason not to use Mozilla which it is based on. I mean - Mozilla updates on a daily basis, and by the time new Netscapes are released they will already be outdated in comparison.
Too bad netscape but you loose... I have a feeling AOL is quite a big factor for this.

Erik Almqvist

Hypocrites!

Try validating this article or the O'Reilly home page.

anonymous

I am shocked that AOL/Netscape would release such an inferior, unstable, non-compliant upgrade to 4.7. I would like to support Netscape but I have trouble defending to collegues why Netscape 6 is so slow and non-compliant. The release of Version 6 in it's current state will be a major headache to web developers such as myself. AOL needs to do some serious thinking before releasing this lemon!

David Sica

Be good developers, do your job, release a good product
and stand behind your promises.

And please improve the interface. Now where is my
home button? And whats up with the collapsable toolbars
that aren't in the right place anymore when you expand them?

It's like Netscape has added all sorts of neat features to
the UI but totally failed on improving the useability of
the core application.

Joshua Gunder

Has everyone forgotten that Mozilla split from the Netscape codebase?

Who cares about Netscape when we know that Mozilla will be ok??

Jon Thor Williams

I've discussed the issue of standards compliance n times, and I'm not going to repeat what has already been said.. Not making them standards compliant at this point is stupid-stupid-stupid-stupid.

Morten W. Petersen

I agree with this article and have no plans of supporting Netscape at any point in the future. I would be a VERY happy web developer if Netscape would just dissapear!

Joshua Decker

As a developer, I swore I would never ever bend over backwards again to satisfy a DOM that is browser specific which means W3C standards must be supported. Never ever again will I bend over backwards to make something work for a browser when the developer community has spoken and asked for a standard to be followed.

Netscape has practicly 0 market share now and are ridding the reputation of a browser that supports standards. If they want to make their business profitable, all the power to them...if they do it at the expense of the development community then I say developers no longer support Netscape.
The problem is the general public doesn't even know what W3C is and they'll upgrade their system to Netscape 6.0 and go on all those simple sites and everything will be ok. Once sites start using the full potential of the DOM then what??? Back to having code that verifies if it's IE or Netscape? What's the point of standards if you don't follow them?

Netscape, for the love of God don't screw the developers!



Lior Amar
CTO of OSTnet
lior@ostnet.com
www.ostnet.com

Lior Amar

At this stage of the game, releasing a non-standards compliant web browser is simply inexcusable. We have waited this long for v6 -- take the time to do the right thing and support the standards.

Scott Davis

Netscape should delay the release until the browser is compliant. Not much
else makes sense - the best thing the netscape browser can offer is standards
compliance and a committment to continue being compliant.

jeff putnam

Netscape should delay the release until the browser is compliant. Not much
else makes sense - the best thing the netscape browser can offer is standards
compliance and a committment to continue being compliant.

jeff putnam

Are they TRYING to let Microsoft Internet Explorer take over the browser universe. Please make Netscape compliant with Open Standards

Stan Barton

...and they wonder why Microsoft won the war...

Me

Just do it!

Tilly McGillicutty

After such a long wait for this next-generation browser, it seems reasonable
to take a little more time to actually get it right.

Guy McArthur

Netscape: Listen to this man. He wrote the book, literally, and is one of the smartest men the business.

If you want to do this the Microsoft way (release software and have the general public beta test it) that is your option, but not good business.
I've always thought you were better than that.

Eric Richardson

What good is a browser if it is not compatible? The same standards that Netscape doesn't seem to care about are the same ones that have allowed the internet to flourish as it has. There are plenty of opportunities to exercise non-conformity, but a browser is not one of them. The real shame is that Netscape is the dominant browser for Linux/Unix users, and the fact that it hasn't kept up doesn't bode well for the future of these operating systems, especially in the modern workplace, where a browser is a neccessary tool.

Nathan McMinn

I agree with Mr. Flanagan -- you need to concentrate first and foremost on standards compliance. If you don't, the Netscape blip will simply disappear off everyone's radar screen -- it will be irrelevant. I will not develop for it, I won't even use it if it is not compliant with all open standards. I have waited so long for a better browser, putting up with 4.x's many bugs -- what Netscape is planning now would be a slap in the face to the last of the Netscape holdouts. Netscape will have left us, not the other way around. I will finally have to admit that Microsoft has a superior product, and Netscape will have earned the contempt I once had for Microsoft.

Scot Zumbehl

I have used Netscape for years, and was happy with a standards-compliant that did not feel as much pressure as Internet Explorer to follow Microsoft's (now accepted as industry-damaging) policy of "embrace and extend". I am not at all interested in many of the bells-and-whistles that are supposed to be included in the new Netscape, and I feel that they detract from the product. A browser is a tool. I want a browser that FOLLOWS (not defines) industry standards. I want one that does so using minimal resources, and that does not include commercial hype and other proprietary garbage.

Bill Neurauter

What todays webdesigners have to put up with is to adapt websites and its designs to comply with two browser, netscape and explorer. Since Netscape hasn't been upgraded (properly) in 2 years (imagine what that is in Internet-years) it has fallen behind completely. Plus the fact that it has a random behaviour and crashes alot.

It is too bad if netscape continues to release browsers with these kinds of known bugs. I feel sorry for the guys and girls that have to adapt sites to a faulty browser.

Joakim Holmback

i am tired of web browsers that do not render html properly. please do not create another browser that carelessly dismisses the hard work of the w3c and makes life for web designers difficult.

kristofer nelson

I would hate to see a good app go bad. Take your time, and realease a product worth wild for all to use.

Scott Wolf

I am a professional web developer for a large internet consulting firm. It gets harder every day to convince clients that IE is not the only browser that matters. If Netscape 6 gets released without these fixes, my task will become impossible -- existing sites will break, and Netscape 6 won't be part of the target browser spec on new projects. As people download 6 and watch sites fail, they will return to their previous browser (or download the latest IE).


I hope that the individuals responsible for the release decision understand that browsers need to be functional to be popular.

Dave Owen

I am becoming rather alarmed at the apparent belief at Netscape that even the smallest noncompliance with standards will be sustainable in a Netscape 6.0 release.

Noting a discrepancy in the release notes results in a product which is just as defective.

Perhaps marketing heads at Netscape -- if they have any -- think that they will be able to establish a marginally noncompliant browser if they throw in a lot of bells and whistles. That won't work. If I want AOL Instant Messenger, net2phone, or any of those products, I know how to download, install, and operate them without messing with another larger product. Users can identify the difference between a huge download and a small one. Not everyone has DSL or cable modems and vast wastelands of hard drive space yet. Don't confuse your power users with the real user base to whom your competition caters: the average, only semi-computer-literate individual.

If you're aiming for use in the enterprise, beware! I can think of no user base which is presently more zealous about software standards (except perhaps the military, but the military shies away from extravagant web coding).

A themeable but noncompliant browser is of no use to me. A torn painting is not substantially improved by a pretty frame.

Moreover, any appeal that "chroming" might have for independent developers will be lost if the product cannot behave as it ought, according to standards, every time.

I would echo the author and the others who have spoken here: Release a final product which is fully standards compliant. If you do not, expect no mercy, and when the time comes to axe the deadweight, go first to those people controlling marketing who think that all it takes to succeed in the software world today is a pretty product that almost gets the job done. You don't need them.

Timothy Hadley

It is too easy for users to switch to one of your competitors, especially when your biggest competitors' product is already in place on their PC. Netscape must exhibit the engineering prowess to create a product great enough to loosen the clutches of the other products on the users and allow them to honestly select the Netscape package over all others. Not conforming to the standards is no way to achieve this. If display or functional anomalies exist, the users will simply shelve the Netscape product and revert back to an old (and possibly far less capable) package that, if nothing else, doesnt have any big problems.

I'm pulling for Netscape, but this is getting harder and harder to do.

Monty

Monty Scroggins

I agree with the author...you are already so far behind, that if you don't come out with something that is satisfiable to standards, then people will wonder why you were taking so long.

Do the right thing...incorporate good standards.

Michael

I'm appalled that the Netscape division of AOL would even think of releasing a non-standards compliant browser. During the browser wars I remember IE adding all the cool non-standards compliant functions that would break a perfectly good web page. Now it seems the positions are reversed, and instead of NS trying to one-up IE via standards, they're doing what? I don't get it. How do they expect to get any market share from this crap they're trying to push.

It's not even so much the masses who will choose what gets used. It's the web development community who will decide how they make their webpages. Developers like standards. They make life easier.

And please, MS, if NS does itself in, make a Linux/*BSD compatible version of IE!

Taavi Burns

at pandell we restrict most of our web based app functionality to ie5. it would be nice to support both platforms, but not worth the effort if developing for netscape remains needlessly difficult

-gord

gordon mcdowell

I have used Netscape for years, and was happy with a standards-compliant that did not feel as much pressure as Internet Explorer to follow Microsoft's (now accepted as industry-damaging) policy of "embrace and extend". I am not at all interested in many of the bells-and-whistles that are supposed to be included in the new Netscape, and I feel that they detract from the product. A browser is a tool. I want a browser that FOLLOWS (not defines) industry standards. I want one that does so using minimal resources, and that does not include commercial hype and other proprietary garbage.

Lonny Eachus

I have used Netscape for years, and was happy with a standards-compliant that did not feel as much pressure as Internet Explorer to follow Microsoft's (now accepted as industry-damaging) policy of "embrace and extend". I am not at all interested in many of the bells-and-whistles that are supposed to be included in the new Netscape, and I feel that they detract from the product. A browser is a tool. I want a browser that follows (not defines) industry standards. I want one that does so using minimal resources, and that does not include commercial hype and other proprietary garbage.

Support the standards FIRST. Then, if you feel it necessary to include extras, include settings so users can turn them off!

Lonny Eachus

Netscape: This is a no-brainer. You're in crunch time right now, and you should be excited/accepting of these IMPORTANT bug fixes. Make the right decision.

On another note, PLEASE make the NS Instant Messenger compatible with AOLIM AND ICQ (also owned by AOL!). To me, this is also a no-brainer!

Brian White

When you are the first out with a new idea, you can implement it any way you wish. Once an installed base of competitors products are in circulation, you need a bridge to be able to use their data models or structures. No bridge to a neutral industrial standard equals no business.
Prime examples of this was the NeXT computer. (This is being written on one).
Netscape needs standards compliance first. Would you buy a car that can not be used on the current roadways? Who cares about the other features...

Wake up and smell the coffee before it is too late.

Gerold Rupprecht

When you are the first out with a new idea, you can implement it any way you wish. Once an installed base of competitors products are in circulation, you need a bridge to be able to use their data models or structures. No bridge to a neutral industrial standard equals no business.
Prime examples of this was the NeXT computer. (This is being written on one).
Netscape needs standards compliance first. Would you buy a car that can not be used on the current roadways? Who cares about the other features...

Wake up and smell the coffee before it is too late.

Gerold Rupprecht

As a member of a development team focusing on webhosted application, we're extremely disheartened by the pending release of Netscape 6. Even though we run Linux and use Netscape almost exclusively internally, we have recently discussed (last week in fact) developing for IE. This is due almost completely to Netscape's inability to handle CSS properly. Various issues with CSS and DHTML have cost so much time in doing multiple versions of pages - or sacrificing look/feel/features - that we started considering if we shouldn't just develop out web applications exclusively for IE.

I'd like to strongly request that the release of Netscape 6 be postponed until standards compliance is achieved - or at least is equal to that of IE 5.

-
Corwin Grey
Application Development Team
http://www.projectsoftwaregroup.com

Corwin Grey

I do web development and am constantly frustrated by Navigator 4.x. I do some work with 6 pr3, and have been looking forward to have a browser that rivals IE's standards compliance (finially). Now that I have learned that netscape does not plan to even fix minor bugs that have patches that already work, I am ready to write off netscape and all of its products as a complete failure. It's sad when a company can't wait another week or month to get basic standards compliance finished on a product people have been waiting for for over two years.

Karl Shea

Too many people have worked too long for this to be screwed up now.

Netscape 6 is a symbol. To fail in its' mission would be disasterous.

People will have to choose to use Mozilla over Netscape 6.

Michael Merker

!

Stefan Gmoser

I use Communicator 4.7, Mozilla and NS6pr3. I like how all of them work. I think NS6 will be a great product, if done right. You only get one chance to do it right when working with standards-setting code. Think with your heads, not with your marketing hype. Take advantage of the benefits your open-source developers are providing you, and Use The Source, Luke.

Chris 'Xenon' Hanson

Netscape Navigator should give up the ghost. Netscape has not been relevant for 3 or more years now. Microsoft Internet Explorer 3 matched Netscape, IE 4 surpassed Netscape, IE 5 made Netscape 4.7 and 6.0 look like jokes, IE 5.5 makes Netscape 4.7 and 6.0 look sorry-ass. Even Netscape realized that their 5th generation (and I use that term loosely) browser was a piece of crap and after 2 years of so-called development, they finally chucked it and went to 6.0. AOL should just write off Netscape as a loss.

I hated having to develop WWW sites for the least common denominator - I now refuse to do so. If we, as developers, want standards we need to stop worrying about minimalization (as is the case when we develop pages so that Netscape and Opera can read them) and give our support to Microsoft Internet Explorer. The self-styled elitists among us need to stop bashing Microsoft and get realistic. Developing for Microsoft's software has made many of us rich. I'm not saying we should be indebted to Microsoft, but neither should we be indebted to Netscape, Opera, Sun Microsystems or any other company just because they supposedly support "open standards".

Please AOL, put Netscape out of its misery by killing it and take the loss of money you so unwisely invested (another term that I use loosely) as a tax write-off!!!

Post Script: I know that Opera supports Cascading Style Sheets as well as anyone. However, Opera is far behind in terms of add-on/plug-in support, their interface is dismal, and they charge money for their browser.

Robert Ternes

We desperately need a serious alternative to Microsoft IE, and Opera is just not it. I have been playing with Mozilla's releases for a long while now, and the Netscape distribution is appalling. It is slow to load, incredibly unstable during that boot process, and frustrating to consider using. It does not render javascripts properly, nor does it handle Flash or many other attributes with finess. I used to be a Netscape booster, but I have used MS IE for over 6 months now because Netscape have not put forth the effort that is to be expected from a company as big as AOL. Honestly, this latest release is a joke, and I refuse to touch Netscape again until they do meet web standards. Block this release, label it beta, and fix the problems... please! Thank you for this opportunity to have our say.

Kyp de V.

How can those Netscape folks call themselves 'engineers' if they willingly and knowingly release products that contain defects. It's literally a disgrace to the community of engineers. Do you think civil engineers decide to forego a bearing column, just so that the public unveiling of a new building will be on time?

Hell, it may not be life or death but it's the commitment to producing quality work that enable the engineering community to earn the respect of the public. You people should be ashamed of yourselves.

Please, oh, please do not let the petty marketing or internal politicking of Netscape sway you from releasing a quality product. If you folks are truly engineers, you would do what's *right*, not what makes a manager happy.

Victor Chan

THe only chance that netscape has, is to release a browser that is 100% standards compliant. Otherwise there is no reason to even try it.

please delay netscape 6 until it is standards compliant.

mike chambers

mesh@speakeasy.org

Mike Chambers

Forget about netscape, mozilla is what I want, not some AOL Product. I feel that corporate tactics leave the user in the middle with a shitty product. I feel we could completly ignore netscape if there was an acceptable browser for *NIX. I dont feel that the Netscape / Mozilla crew's share the same ideals. I would like to see an open source browser that does not rely on the needs of a corporation.

Chris

Chris Johannesen

Standards, people. Get them right first. The current state of browsers is maddening.

David Hendler

Do the right thing...call the release a beta and reopen the code. I have been holding out for Navigator 6, putting up with 4.x in the hopes that I could upgrade my department to a standards-compliant non-Microsoft browser. But if Nav 6 is not compliant, I can't wait any longer. IE 5.5 will get put on all our boxes.

John Q. Heywood

Drop the sidebar (nobody needs it), drop the skins (nice to look at but ultimately useless) and put in the standards compliance! I have been a Netscape supporter for years, but if you screw this up, I will change to another browser!

Karsten F

Now, I'm not a web designer by any standard, but the sites that I have/do work on, though limited, I really strive to keep compatible and compliant to the demands of the different browsers. I can't even really claim that I know what I'm doing, but at least the desire to make something that surfer A using IE, and surfer B using netscape can both see easily is there, and a goal like that is noble in itself. Reading the different pages of various web developers, kind enough to lend me their advice, apparently have goals similar to mine with thier pages. If NN6 will be released in the state that it's being claimed, then they may as well release nothing at all. What a foolish move they would make. Where's the logic?

-adm

Adam McWaters

Are you INSANE Netscape ?!?!?!?!?!?! You are bastardizing the Mozilla code and turning it back into the POS that Netscape 4.x is.

Mike Jasnowski

Netscape: your browser is already late. Please don't make it buggy, too. If it's a top-quality, standout browser with strong features, and most importantly, if it is stable like a rock and has strict standards compliance, then all the waiting will have been worth it. But if it's a piece of crap, then Netscape will have finally shot itself in the foot for the last time.

I mean that seriously. Keep going like this, and you won't be around long enough to put out Netscape 7.0. Your market share has declined dramatically, even though many people are desperately searching for good alternatives to Microsoft. In the meantime, Netscape is eating itself alive, because it can't supply the "good" in that emphasized section.

You've hired your engineers to be smart about how to write code. Listen to them! Let them do their jobs!

But above all: fix your bugs. Give us a browser that works, stably, correctly, in accord with the standards, every time, with no crashes, and the Internet will beat a path back to your door. It's not like we've forgotten where to find you.

You just need to convince us that it's worth coming back.

Kai MacTane, a long-time Netscape suppor

I will not use the provided html tags as a service to those already using Netscape v6 as they may or may not be rendered properly for you. Come on, this is ridiculous. This, well hell, this make Internet Explorer look good! Egads

Joe McGuire

What is wrong with the dolts at Netscape?

Why the hell are they including such things as AIM (Asshole Online Idiot Messenger), net2phone or the crappy email/news client, etc when they should be concentrating on things like standard compliance, which is a position that they were much better on than M$ but have surrendered that position long ago. Remeber the days when M$ were spanked black and blue for not complying to the standards as well as Netscape did? Well, those days are long gone.

Also, why are we still forced to either have Javascript on when there are lots of sites where I do not want JS enabled (Geocities comes to mind immediately). I hate those fscking pop-up windows and those annoying ad scripts.

And whats with the installer, only giving download progress on the currecnt file? Where is the overall download progress bar? Also, it completely ignored my existing Netscape settings and went off on it's own. Why?

Who the hell do they think they are putting Asshole Online shortcuts on my desktop. If I want a crapass ISP who gives shitty, "I don't give a rats ass, I have your credit card" service and creates software that completely screws my network setup, I will hunt for it.

Much as I hate to say it, I consider IE to be a better browser at the moment, with things like the ability to select which sites have things like javascripting ability or any other form of scripting.

Come on, Netscape. Get your act together! Or is the AOL influence washing through Netscape like a sewage tide?

William Keay

What is wrong with the dolts at Netscape?

Why the hell are they including such things as AIM (Asshole Online Idiot Messenger), net2phone or the crappy email/news client, etc when they should be concentrating on things like standard compliance, which is a position that they were much better on than M$ but have surrendered that position long ago. Remeber the days when MS were spanked black and blue for not complying to the standards as well as Netscape did? Well, those days are long gone.

Also, why are we still forced to either have Javascript on when there are lots of sites where I do not want JS enabled (Geocities comes to mind immediately). I hate those fscking pop-up windows and those annoying ad scripts.

And whats with the installer, only giving download progress on the currecnt file? Where is the overall download progress bar? Also, it completely ignored my existing Netscape settings and went off on it's own. Why?

Who the hell do they think they are putting Asshole Online shortcuts on my desktop. If I want a crapass ISP who gives shitty, "I don't give a rats ass, I have your credit card" service and creates software that completely screws my network setup, I will hunt for it.

Much as I hate to say it, I consider IE to be a better browser at the moment, with things like the ability to select which sites have things like javascripting ability or any other form of scripting.

Come on, Netscape. Get your act together! Or is the AOL influence washing through Netscape like a sewage tide?

William Keay

I refuse to use Netscape 6 if it isn't standards compliant. None of the web developers here will use it either. I will them remove netscape permanently from all machines as I can't expect the next version (Netscape 6) to be standards compliant.



This is sad as I have always voted for Netscape; always thought they were more about sticking to standards and making it compliant so that it works across the board. In the back of my mind I always thought that eventually Netscape would come out on top again. If thats not to take place. It'd hurt me to do it but I'd have to remove Netscape. In the long run it'd be better as the sites that I administrate are business minded and the clients would like everyone to be able to view their pages. They don't really care about the holy browser war (I'm a die-hard IE hasn't won the war yet). They just want it to work. When it works it goods for me and them; Guess what?! Being non-standard doesn't work. Not good for them; Not good for me.




Your choice, I know you can make it happen;

Otherwise me and a few of my sysadmin friends will be held hostage and call you traitors to the cause.
-Christopher Warner

Christopher Warner

Its amazing to me how many of these statements are made with so little insight into the complete product. Every measurement of standards compliance I've seen has shown that Netscape/Mozilla beats IE5.X on standards compliance hands down. I use Mozilla nightly builds so perhaps I'm not in immediate touch with the state of Netscape's current release but I bet it STILL beats the Windows IE5.X compiance. Release it and then make it better, that's how this business works.

Lee

Its amazing to me how many of these statements are made with so little insight into the complete product. Every measurement of standards compliance I've seen has shown that Netscape/Mozilla beats IE5.X on standards compliance hands down. I use Mozilla nightly builds so perhaps I'm not in immediate touch with the state of Netscape's current release but I bet it STILL beats the Windows IE5.X compiance. Release it and then make it better, that's how this business works.

Lee

Netscape has always been the worse of the 2 giants because of their standards compliance... What makes people think that release 6 will fix that? Cuz it's 'open source'? Doesn't mean anything if it's still controlled by a company who doesn't care about standards...

Standards don't make money, Advertisement and "features" that nobody will use make money... and to a corporate body, that's all that matters: money...

Maybe some day we'll live in a world where there's true "standards compliance" but then again, it means we lose our individuallity too... So which is better? Mass uniformity as the expense of individuallity, or having to design for 2 platforms and completly expressing oneself as one feels? Netscape users see my page as "Get a REAL browser" and I'd personally like to keep it that way.

PhaseBurn

As a professional web site developer, I have to express my concern and frustration with the whole Netscape debacle. It's one thing to want to provide a viable (and even attractive) alternative to IE, it's completely another to send an anticipating public back into Bill's arms because of a pathetic attempt. I can appreciate the difficulty in rewriting an application from scratch, but one would think more time would be spent on making it better. Building up a fully functional, flexible, and solid interpreter for css, html, dhtml, and ECMAScript would be so much better than trying to be fancy with themes and shopping buttons. Please, we beg you, keep your code from the public at least until you can get it right. We really need some competition in the market, not another joke application like IE 3 was. C'mmon... common sense folks!

Matt Mc

Releasing a projuct with known bugs is a big mistake. There will be plenty of unknown bugs appear once real users get their hands on it.

The fact that the accompanying mail client does not include roaming access is a show stopper at this company.

Paul J. Shane

It's because of crap like that I'm using IE to send this message. Once apon a time Netscape was all I used. Now it's almost unbarable to use. I've been looking forward to Netscape 6 for quite some time and now... I really don't care. Let them do what they want. I'm not using their product. It sucks. It doesn't matter how much I hate M$. If it means using a product from a compnay I hate or using a product that sucks I'll do the former every time.

Mike Heath

Don't do it to us again. You won't be forgiven.

Since many web developers will be forced to recode their dynamic HTML pages to support NN6, it doesn't make sense to force them to code around more non-compliance issues, especially when you already have the fixes, and they've been carefully code-reviewed... USE THEM! If you release with these known compliance issues, you will be roasted by the press (and Microsoft's FUD patrol).

After waiting so long, an extra month or two will not make any difference. You won't get another chance to salvage your reputation. NC4 was a disaster--it handed the browser market to Microsoft on a silver platter!

NC4 was released with a non-functional JVM, and Java hasn't yet recovered from this failure (it took over a year for a functional 1.1 compliant JVM to appear on NC4). Don't rush out another product that will forever haunt web developers.

Ken Settle

I may not bee the sharpest tool in the shed, but from what i have seen of the world, if people arnt happy about a product, regardless of how manny bells and whistls, how sleek and high speed it wants to look, if it doesnt function the way the *majority expects it should, then it is useless.

I realize *all* software has bugs. Whether they are actual bugs from poor programing or "bugs" from what some user thinks it should function for her/him, this is a reality. OPEN standards are what the "majority" agree upon. What the "majority" expects from a certain product. If this (or any other) product fails to come to par for the "majority" then the product has failed its indended use. Would you be happy with your brand new RX7 if every time you made a turn there were loud poping noises? if the stering whele was loose? if the clock decided what time it wanted to be? (personaly i wouldnt appreciate it)

My point being: if people dont like it, they will find another way.
This is the human way, it is natures way of selective eugenics. If we are blocked we (humanity) will find its way around.

I bring RH7.0 as case in point. Regardless of whether RH thinks "its the best product we have released", the consensus doesnt think so. and they ultimately are who, will or wont, use your product.

The failure of ,marketing/development-team/programers/whoever, to effect needed and necessary changes in software that is currently being developed is basicly thuming the nose at the customers, which is what software and buissness is all about. please correct my if im wrong. (i dont think businesses pay good money and put out software for their health)



"A "No" uttered from deepest conviction is better and greater than a "Yes"
merely uttered to please, or what is worse, to avoid trouble."
"Is it not enough to know the evil to shun it? If not, we should be sincere
enough to admit that we love evil too well to give it up."
- Ghandi

P. Prior

This is just another example of how far Netscape has fallen behind.

Shane Denton

Please do not release a non-standards compliant web browser, we've already waitied this long, why not a few months more. Doing this will merely give M$ more ammunition against Netscape. Make NS6 beta again and let the Mozilla team do it's work and patch it.

Chris Hemmah

Releasing Netscape 6 in its current state would be a huge mistake. I believe that it would cause people to move to IE & other browsers, and that, in my opinion would be very bad. I use Netscape whenever possible because of its reputation for supporting the various open standards. If one of the major browsers stops supporting the various standards, even if it is due to serious bugs in the code, other vendors may feel free to intentionally stop their support in favor of proprietary standards.

Morgan Terry

To put it simply, the reason Netscape is not getting market share is that it is not able to work on sites that follow the standards. Therefore any bugs that move Netscape away from standards should be considered "Fatal". Otherwise what is the point of working on it? I feel sorry for the poor programmers working on this thing that that they realize is going to be useless. They have no doubt put tons of work into it and its being sabotaged by bad management. That just sucks.

And I have to laugh when I hear people say "Its not a critical bug so they can ship without it." Bugs priority levels are a matter of politics. Think about it...what really does it take to change the priority of a bug...click...click. The real issue is of standards and the internet. As any of you who has actually developed a real internet site knows getting an app to work across IE and Netscape is no fun at all. IE generally follows the standards and Netscape doesn't. Its that simple. Netscape is doubling the cost of development for every project that has a requirement to support it. That has a huge drag on everything we do. If we could get rid of Netscape completely we would all be better off.

Its amusing to hear people who I suspect love to harp on MS for lack of standards call for Netscape to release another browser that doesn't follow standards. Netscape made up layers, what the heck is a layer?(This is rhetorical)
And Netscape doesn't support events on all elements of the DOM. I guess this is a feature. Even areas where you would suspect a non-Microsoft app to be strong such as Java support Netscape only supports as a plug-in.

michael ashby

I struggle on with NN 4.6 as my primary personal browser but for work - already one project is completely IE5+ specific, the other is heading that way. This is because of the functionality provided by DHTML, CSS and the DOM. If Netscape can't get the DOM compliant in this release then we won't support it and so another bunch of users will be directed to Microsoft.

Chris

Chris McKay

I'm not a big-time developer or webmaster for a large company. I maintain an informational site at 68caliber.com and I am working on a number of smaller sites in the same genre as 68 for others who appreciate my skills, but I feel that I must add my own small voice to the crowd.

I've been developing web sites for about 6 years in my spare time. Making a little money and even getting my name mentioned in 2 national sports-related magazines because of them. I've always strived to be cross-browser compatible, writing one page for all and not branching into creating separate Netscape, IE, other pages. Due to failures of companies like Sun (HotJava), Opera, and Netscape to keep their browsers current with accepted standards, this is becoming harder to do.

To Netscape: Back when Netscape Communicator 4 came out, you guys had the best browser. I wouldn't have dreamt of using MSIE. But Since then, significant improvements have not been made. It seems that its more important to bundle Real Player and AOL Instant Messenger than to make your browser compliant with web standards; benefitting both the user and the developer.

There is a reason why Netscape lost and continues to lose market share. My log files show that between all of the sites I maintain, Netscape is used only by 23% - 28% of visitors. You are losing the browser war thru your lack of willingness to modernize. I personally think its pathetic, especially when you went to court blaming MS's "illegal monopolistic tactics" for your loss of market share, when you clearly are distributing an inferior product.

In addition, I've been forced recently to use Netscape again. I switched my home computer that I work off of to Linux. Netscape was the most modern and compliant browser I can find and I was absolutley APPALLED by the fact that the JVM is so unstable as to make any web site using Java Applets COMPLETELY USELESS; including my own site (this has been remedied since its discovery). I thought it was the fault of Linux, but I can run my Applets using Appletviewer with no trouble at all. So I lay the blame squarely on Netscape's shoulders.

Enough accusations. I beg you to fix your problems. Step away from the marketting side of the business and just make the browser useable to both developers and users alike. If you build a better product, people will use it. I'd like to see Netscape start to retake the market from IE, but I fear it won't happen. I have no faith in Netscape as a company and doubt you guys are going to do anything about it. Are you assuming Bill Gates is just going to let his company get split up, then give up IE and allow Netscape to win the browser war by default? Looks like it to me.

In conclusion I'd just like to say, "Netscape. Fix it.", bfore web developers just start using a JScript tag to print out "To view this page, please download Internet Explorer." when Netscape is detected. If I thought I could get away with it...I would...but I need the ad $$$s...so for now I'm forced to work-around your product and deliver a less-than-complete experience to my viewers. (Thanks for that BTW)

David Holstein
Vice President Of Propaganda
www.68caliber.com
Webmaster
www.webzone.net/drford

(If I misspelled anything...I'll fix it when Netscape 6 in Linux supports my VR applet I spent weeks designing)

David "FUna" Holstein

There are always reasons for not being able to apply patches and fixes into a code base before a scheduled release. I am sure that Netscape does not want to fall into the delayed release pattern that Microsoft is so famous for. Additionally, Netscape does have to generate revenue in order to continue their presence, and maintain their financial backing.

With this said, it is disappointing that DOM and CSS standards will not be fully supported. Unforturnately, this will push a number of development efforts to focus on the IE browser. If there is no legitimate competition on the browser front, then I would expect a migration away from Netscape. We've all been waiting patiently for the 6.0 release, don't make it a disappointment from the start.

William Parker-Combes

I think there would be no practical benefit in delaying the Netscape release further. All that would accomplish is more people using Netscape 4.7 and IE 5.5, neither of which are as standards compliant as the current Netscape beta.

David Chan

I think there would be no practical benefit in delaying the Netscape release further. All that would accomplish is more people using Netscape 4.7 and IE 5.5, neither of which are as standards compliant as the current Netscape beta.

David Chan

I think there would be no practical benefit in delaying the Netscape release further. All that would accomplish is more people using Netscape 4.7 and IE 5.5, neither of which are as standards compliant as the current Netscape beta.

David Chan

As simply a user, I've already been dismayed at the number of bugs in the current Netscape. Why give Microsoft more reasons for people to use IE?!?

Kelly Petlig

We have waited what seems like over two years for the _new_ netscape. If we can wait this long, we can go another couple of months. Please, beta the cade and fix the compliance issues. We will all be thankful.


John Hughes

John Hughes

As simply a user, I've already been dismayed at the number of bugs in the current Netscape. Why give Microsoft more reasons for people to use IE?!?

Kelly Petlig

All I know is that when I make a webpage with tables in notepad or dreamweaver, then view it in netscape, it looks like crap. Netscape 4.7x and 6 both mishandle tables that do not have exact widths and heights for every cell. In other words, its near impossible to do a proper table to vary in size (yet still keep absolute widths for some of the cells.) Internet Explorer works better, for all html. I'm not talking about Microsoft-specific code, but even standard javascript, layer, and table code. Highlight text when you pass over it in netscape? of course not. What are the new features in every version of Netscape? Shopping buttons and bundled AOL applications. Great new features, guys, now how about properly function tables, layers, frames, and javascript?

Ian Spencer

The comments saying that the author is unrealistic to say that they
shouldn't be allowed to do a code freeze for release have clearly not
examined the statement in detail. The statement is a call for Netscape/AOL
to release the known-noncompliant code as a *beta*; not to not release it at
all. Yes, large projects often ship with known bugs. However, when your
user base tells you that you have a number of important issues left to fix
before releasing the product, *and* you already have fixes in place for testing,
then this is the perfect time to release the code, with fixes, as a *beta test*.

The real motivation, of course, is not that they really need to ship the code,
but rather that they want to get ahead of MSIE's version number (also the reason
for the jump from 4.x to 6.0). This is clearly a case of marketting forcing
a quetionable technical move. The potential customers are saying ``this will
be a mistake!''. It seems pretty foolish to ignore such statements.

chad brown

If Netscape 6.0 is released with bugs this serious, I don't think I can commit to building DHTML web sites compliant with NN 6.x and IE 5.x to my clients. There were enough serious omissions in NN 4.x to make life for DHMTL developers unnecessarily complicated, but for NN 6.x to be WORSE than 4.x is simply not acceptable. I'll have to start telling our prospective clients that we can't commit to NN 6, and given Netscape's dwindling market share, we should simply ignore NN 6.x users and post a message on their home page that says "best viewed with Internet Explorer".

The humiliation of being a marketing tool for Bill Gates hurts, but not nearly as much as trouble shootings a host of cludgey work-arounds in front of a client whose contract says "compliant with NN 4.x and higher, IE 4.x and higher". Netscape used to be the browser of choice, and the browser for the people. But with a release as hyped and as disappointing as NN 6.0 is shaping up to be, Netscape will become the browser of committee thinking, and the browser for "consumers", the mindless victims of marketing who eat advertising and crap cash.

Michael Andersen

As a web developer and designer, I look to open standards when I code, and I expect the browsers I use and target to comply with those standards. When a browser yields unexpected results during HTML rendering and JavaScript/DOM processing, it makes my job much more difficult. Instead of developing for one set of standards, I must take these variations into account and develop work arounds, or even worse, ignore the faulty browser altogether, targetting only Microsoft's Internet Explorer. This costs me time, my clients money, and Netscape, it's reputation. I really want to see Mozilla/NS6 emerge as a new standard for web browsers, accurately incorporating finalized standards that I and thousands of other developers are eager to use. Please take the time and effort to correct these known problems and bugs.

Chris Bryant

Chris Bryant

You are destroying your own user base with your continued refusal to fix simple problems with Netscape that interfere with it's core purpose, viewing web pages, in favor of fixing problems with all the bells and whistles that you have added that your most loyal users don't care about. This course of action can only lead to the death of Netscape. PLEASE, fix the standards bugs first, then worry about the extras.

Mark Persuitte

I do not understand what is this all about... Netscape has decided to release Netscape 6.0. Ok so it has bugs, and so there are some bug fixes... as any reasonable person would understand there are some deadlines to meet. Netscape 6.0 must go out, there is always time to fix those bugs on 6.01 or whatever Netscape may decide to call it. It is not that other products do not have as many compatibility bugs, it's just that Netscape 6.0 is open sourced and so it came out faster than in other cases. If Netscape stalls this release longer Netscape 6.0 may just become obsolete.
Do not tell me that this is a sincere concern that you are having about Netscape's bugs. If it was so why didn't you make a petition about the 20.000 bugs discovered on Win2k just a few weeks before release? You could have then started a petition to force microsoft fix those bugs.
This fuss is only discrediting Netscape while it is trying to put on the market a product that just might save what's left of it's market share or even expand it a bit.
I believe you should stop using blinkers and give Netscape a fair chance...

Mitritsakis Valerio Paris

Please don't ship a non-compliant browser. We've waited this long. If you don't adhere to the standards, what are they? The market will move around you without the support of the developers, and I for one request standards compliance.

Jeff Wiegand

I am a Web developer who writes code for sites that need to run cross-browser because they are often aimed towards a general public whose browser usage is very diverse. Although Netscape has a much smaller portion of the market than IE, it takes up a vastly disproportionate amount of development time for me and my co-workers to "sniff and workaround" Netscape-only issues (often even branching for different versions of Netscape).

I would strongly urge Netscape not to release a product that continues to flout and frustrate the good will of the developer community. Especially as DHTML, DOM, and sophisticated client-side scripting become more and more prevalent in consumer and business sites, it is crucial that any good browser will adhere to standards and, most of all, not introduce new discrepancies in areas that actually worked correctly in previous releases!

Netscape, Internet Explorer, and Opera are not just browsers. They are development platforms for sophisticated online applications. Netscape should realize this and not bow to the imperatives of the marketing team. The success of your browser is dependent on how well it supports the running of applications that users demand, that we the developers write code for.

Thank you for your attention.

Kathleen Bennett

I have been championing Netscape for years. Then you were bought by AOL and immediately began to add unnecessary crap while ignoring serious problems. I have yet to view a working version of Netscape 6 for the Mac.

It's time to rethink your strategy, you're letting Microsoft scare you into acting like them, i.e. creating bad software just to get it out the door.

1. Seperate the mail, news and web browser. It's unnecessary bloat and impairs freedom of choice.
   
2. Bring back the roaming access feature.
   
3. Get rid of your JVM and use external JVMs
   
4. Fix the BUGS NOW!
   

Robert Schmid

This is in response to Troy Roberts posting below:

Troy, this is not about a code freeze on a buggy product, but about a code freeze for a product that is still not standards compliant. Compliancy first! Then the code freeze.

As nurb has written below:

really netscape

its the web developers that will make or break your browser. make them happy or they will just forget about you altogeather.

>November 7th, 2000 11:34 AM
>
>I can not believe the author or many of the responses herein. Netscape decided >to freeze their code. This means that they will only fix show
> stoppers, not every little bug that comes along. You might say, "Hey, I want >those bugs fixed. I want them to wait and ship good code." Well,
> maybe, you have never worked on a large project before. It is not possible to >ship a large program with absolutely no bugs. What you do is
> freeze, stablize, and the release. Pick up any bugs in the next release. >"Wait, thats just how Microsoft ships all their bug ridden crap", you
> say. But you don't seem to understand the this is how software works. Look at >other open source projects. Look at the Linux kernel, it will
> ship with known bug when 2.4 comes out. Does that mean it should not be >released? No. It means that large projects are very very difficult
> to make bug free. Eventually, you have to chose to release or stay in beta >forever. Pick any othe Open source project or product on the
> market that is at least 100,000 lines of code. Each of them will have known >bugs.

> It is a matter of choice when to freeze a software set. If you freeze too >early you end up with many bugs in the release. If you freeze to late
> you prolong the beta. Netscape made the choice. You do not have to agree, but >you should not act as if they are purposely attempting to
> make a buggy product.
>
> A rational evaluation of Netscape 6 yields that it is a good product and is on >track. I personally believe that it will be more standards
> compliant than other browser on the market currently (Yes. IE has many bugs >and standards problems).
>
> Please, give some serious thought to your position before you spout off about >things you seem to know very little about. Take the time to
> investigate the compitition. Take the time to test the product at hand. Then >attemp to render a non-bias report (Of course this would require
> you to act like a journalist).
>
>
> Troy Roberts

Tim Hawes

I do not understand what is this all about... Netscape has decided to release Netscape 6.0. Ok so it has bugs, and so there are some bug fixes... as any reasonable person would understand there are some deadlines to meet. Netscape 6.0 must go out, there is always time to fix those bugs on 6.01 or whatever Netscape may decide to call it. It is not that other products do not have as many compatibility bugs, it's just that Netscape 6.0 is open sourced and so it came out faster than in other cases. If Netscape stalls this release longer Netscape 6.0 may just become obsolete.
Do not tell me that this is a sincere concern that you are having about Netscape's bugs. If it was so why didn't you make a petition about the 20.000 bugs discovered on Win2k just a few weeks before release? You could have then started a petition to force microsoft fix those bugs.
This fuss is only discrediting Netscape while it is trying to put on the market a product that just might save what's left of it's market share or even expand it a bit.
I believe you should stop using blinkers and give Netscape a fair chance...

Mitritsakis Valerio Paris

It seemed ironic to be solicited to protest against Netscape and be led to a page containing hundreds of protests containted in a *table*. Sit around waiting for a page to display because the content is in a table, when the content isn't even *remotely* tabular.

Netscape counts on most of its users to be of similar caliber. So, what's the beef?

Mark

Mark Fuller

Maybe what is called for here is a Linux style numbering. Although I am disappointed that 6.0 might not have every last subtle compliance problem fixed (I leave javascript off now since I can't selectively disable the irritating popups), I would rather have the next version out.

That said, they should have a downloadable 6.1.0 with all the patches noted (and probably a few more) ready the same day. Put all the disclaimers up, but do both. I often use "unstable" Linux kernels that don't crash with my configuration but incorporate some new very useful technology.

It isn't going to end at 6.0, and there should be a 6.0.1, 6.0.2, etc. which should backfill the fixes.

If they have to start selling something, I can understand. I don't like their apparent bad attitude over the compliance patches but maybe it is understandable (if any cause more severe bugs than they solve, people paid to be responsible get into trouble, not the submitter).

There should be a way of compromising. Maybe a huge pre-release with the patches so we can all test it (not the unstable milestones but a release candidate).

tz

Netscape, this is unacceptable -- to be releasing a product with this many bugs, some of which grossly violate existing HTML standards and break things (Javascript) which work fine in previous versions of your product.

And then you have the gall to wonder why you'are losing so much market share to Microsoft. Buggy products like this are the reason why!

Doug Muth

Fails Standards Compliance... Really?!? Which version? As a developer I cannot recall a time where I ever appreciated the Netscape browser. I found myself looking for ways to try to accomodate it.

(Since when does 'TD WIDTH="1"' mean a pixel width of 4 anyways?)

Most of the time, I recommend that to my clients not to use it because of its lack of functionality.

(Don't you think that ' SPAN STYLE="font-size: 1px;" ' should show a font size of 1 pixel)

Whatever the version, I doubt very much I will see much along the lines of change.

kc

(Oh... I love how a FORM tag leaves a blank space... why use BR)

kc

ummmm ... Opera.
I'd rather pay $$$ for a standards compliant browser than use a sub-standard marketing tool of a bloated company.

Gary Kahn

Dittos on the above comments.

Do the right thing!

Bryan Hall

<rant>As an independant web developer, I not only find Netscape's overriding marketing ethic repugnant, I am directly insulted. Fractioning already tenuous standards only results in more specific case scenarios and unforseen bugs that reflect upon my work. When User X running Netscape 6 can't see a page that anyone else running a modern browser can, it will of course be both my job to fix the problem and explain to management why exactly my code doesn't work properly. Not only that but introducing new bugs and incorrectly supporting Netscape specific features from previous releases?!? Paugh!
Why even bother? The first time a standard user's machine won't display their favorite site or their machine locks up, they'll un-install Netscape and vow not to install again regardless of whatever wonder patches are foisted upon them.</rant>

Brendan Lough

<rant>As an independant web developer, I not only find Netscape's overriding marketing ethic repugnant, I am directly insulted. Fractioning already tenuous standards only results in more specific case scenarios and unforseen bugs that reflect upon my work. When User X running Netscape 6 can't see a page that anyone else running a modern browser can, it will of course be both my job to fix the problem and explain to management why exactly my code doesn't work properly. Not only that but introducing new bugs and incorrectly supporting Netscape specific features from previous releases?!? Paugh!
Why even bother? The first time a standard user's machine won't display their favorite site or their machine locks up, they'll un-install Netscape and vow not to install again regardless of whatever wonder patches are foisted upon them.</rant>

Brendan Lough

My biggest frustration with the Netscape browser is encountering inconsistencies between versions. A perfectly legitimate JavaScript function that executes properly for one version suddenly requires a work-around for another. Bugs happen, but if there are bugs in your browser that you know about and even have a solution for, there is no reason to wait until a later version to fix them, subjecting your coding public to yet another batch of headaches-inducing coding paradoxes. Please realize that such inconsistencies do nothing to instill loyalty from the web development community. For your own sake, if not ours, please try to release as stable and bug-free a product as you can each time around.

Stefan Langer

Get it together, Netscape.


You're dragging down the entire industry with your abysmal product. I don't care at ALL about:

• Graphical Themes
  
• AOL Instant Messenger
  
• The LAME "What's Related" feature
  
• A sidebar where you can post ads
  
• Shading in the navigation buttons
  

Michael Young

Which is more painful: the failure of Netscape to make good on its promise of standards compliance in 6.0, or watching Microsoft better support open standards.

Jamie Leslie

I can not believe the author or many of the responses herein. Netscape decided to freeze their code. This means that they will only fix show stoppers, not every little bug that comes along. You might say, "Hey, I want those bugs fixed. I want them to wait and ship good code." Well, maybe, you have never worked on a large project before. It is not possible to ship a large program with absolutely no bugs. What you do is freeze, stablize, and the release. Pick up any bugs in the next release. "Wait, thats just how Microsoft ships all their bug ridden crap", you say. But you don't seem to understand the this is how software works. Look at other open source projects. Look at the Linux kernel, it will ship with known bug when 2.4 comes out. Does that mean it should not be released? No. It means that large projects are very very difficult to make bug free. Eventually, you have to chose to release or stay in beta forever. Pick any othe Open source project or product on the market that is at least 100,000 lines of code. Each of them will have known bugs.

It is a matter of choice when to freeze a software set. If you freeze too early you end up with many bugs in the release. If you freeze to late you prolong the beta. Netscape made the choice. You do not have to agree, but you should not act as if they are purposely attempting to make a buggy product.

A rational evaluation of Netscape 6 yields that it is a good product and is on track. I personally believe that it will be more standards compliant than other browser on the market currently (Yes. IE has many bugs and standards problems).

Please, give some serious thought to your position before you spout off about things you seem to know very little about. Take the time to investigate the compitition. Take the time to test the product at hand. Then attemp to render a non-bias report (Of course this would require you to act like a journalist).


Troy Roberts

Troy Roberts

Please don't release yet another subpar browser. There are more than enough of those currently out there. It is worth waiting for a browser that supports the current standards. I'm a big Netscape fan, and always have been. Having used IE, because we are a Windows only workplace, and not every machine has Netscape on it, I can say that I do not like IE. In fact, I'd go so far as to say that I hate it. Part of this comes from the fact that I don't want to have to learn yet another broswer and how to work around its bugs. If you fix the problems with the current Netscape 6.0 builds before you release them, and therefore create a (pretty much) standards compliant browser, then yes, it is another browser to learn to work with, but I won't have to learn to work around its deficiencies. If the browser is released in its current state, it is just another piece of crap that I have to learn to work around if I want to use it.
Please don't make Netscape 6.0 that second one. I've been waiting for 6.0 to be released for quite a while now, since it was supposed to be standards compliant, and I am willing to wait some more.

Thank you.

Rick Pufky

Please don't release yet another subpar browser. There are more than enough of those currently out there. It is worth waiting for a browser that supports the current standards. I'm a big Netscape fan, and always have been. Having used IE, because we are a Windows only workplace, and not every machine has Netscape on it, I can say that I do not like IE. In fact, I'd go so far as to say that I hate it. Part of this comes from the fact that I don't want to have to learn yet another broswer and how to work around its bugs. If you fix the problems with the current Netscape 6.0 builds before you release them, and therefore create a (pretty much) standards compliant browser, then yes, it is another browser to learn to work with, but I won't have to learn to work around its deficiencies. If the browser is released in its current state, it is just another piece of crap that I have to learn to work around if I want to use it.
Please don't make Netscape 6.0 that second one. I've been waiting for 6.0 to be released for quite a while now, since it was supposed to be standards compliant, and I am willing to wait some more.

Thank you.

Rick Pufky

This is more evidence (if more is needed) of Netscape Inc.'s complete lack of understanding of it's product and the marketplace in which it is fighting. It should come as no surprise, too, since there hasn't been a Netscape Communicator release that hasn't been filled with bugs and relatively unusable.

In this case, Darwinism will win and Netscape Communicator will finally come to the end of its slow demise to (finally and thankfully) market-share death.

Jonathan Dale

Netscape/AOL: Do yourself (and the world) a favor and give us a decent (and speedy) browser that adhears to the standards. If the broswer sucks no one is going to use it so no one is going to see any of the other fancy marketing stuff you seem to care more about.

Scott Foust

If Netscape 6 is released with known severe flaws, I will refuse to write code for this browser. Pushing flaws on the development community is an unacceptable practice and I will not support it.

sincerely,

Patrick Corcoran

To whome it may concern;

I would like to register my protest to Netscape 6.0's incompliance with open standards. Open standards are of increasing importance today as networks become more interconnected but no more homogenous.

Netscape enjoys a near exclusive market in areas overlooked by Microsoft's Internet Explorer. However, this market is small by comparison and many emulators exist which allow one to run Windows software on a variety of platforms, with or without Windows. Such software includes VMWare and Wine.

Placing a browser which does not support the current open standard on the market will not help Netscape at all. Indeed, it will likely hurt Netscape, and if Netscape's parent company, AOL, adopts the browser, will only hurt AOL.

Please consider waiting to release your product until it works properly and meets the market needs. This is not about cash tomorrow, this is about having income in a year from this project. I, myself will not use a browser that does not display pages properly, even if I have to rune Internet Explorer on my Linux box using Wine.

Very Truly Yours,

Chris Travers

Chris Travers

This is indicative of why Netscape has all but lost the "Browser Wars". The folks there no longer care about releasing something for the "user" and more about picking his or her pocket. It is a shameful day when I support the monopolistic leviathan over the underdog.

Jonathan Jason Sy

Netscape, you are doing yourself and your customers a huge disservice.

I work for a rather large coorporation that bundles your browser with its
OS. Continuuing bugs and competitor induced compatibility issues are
eroding your market share within this company. If you release the 6.0 browser
with even more problems than the 4.x browsers you will basically be sealing
the doom for support for your product in this company. The alternatives
will make my job a nightmare.

Please, fix the bugs, slip the release.

And tell your managers that
Dilbert is supposed to be for _entertainment_only_ - its not supposed to be
a management howto manual.

Dan Doner

If Netscape 6 is released with known severe flaws, I will refuse to write code for this browser. Pushing flaws on the development community is an unacceptable practice and I will not support it.

sincerely,

Patrick Corcoran

The only thing I can suggest to you, Netscape, is that you first concern yourself with creating a product with a solid foundation before you try to impress potential users with fluff (such as all the unnecessary shooping tabs, etc). Build a solid, stable product that fully supports modern standards, and you will be surprised to see people come to YOU.

Sincerely,
John Quigley
CS Major @ The University of Vermont

John Quigley

As a developer, the issue of compatibility comes up on every single project.

Netscape has no followers any more here at work. Many of us were die-hard Netscape users when we started, but once we learned what we were missing out on, in order to be competitive we all were forced (through logic and reason) to the other side of the browser fence.

All I can really say is that Netscape is lucky that they got such a stronghold right at the beginning, because most of us around here look forward to the day when they either catch up <u>All the way</u>, or just quit their weak attempt.

If they're more concerned with releasing their flawed product rather than making sure they focus on quality, I hope they do lose. What sort of strategy is that? It worked with Microsoft and windows, but that was close to a monopoly.

I think this release could be a pivital point for Netscape. If they can step up to the plate and deliver, they might be able to salvage some of their following. If not, they might find their only users as people who are not technical enough to know how to uninstall.


-signed former Netscape die-hard

Anonymous

It is vital that a solid standards-driven Web browser be built. As much as I am not a fan of Microsoft, Internet Explorer is the closest to that realm in the free browser world that I have found.

Netscape's willingness to sacrifice basic functionality for doodads and gewgaws is why I dropped them with Communicator 4.0. I don't need email integrated into it. What I need is a solid, standards-compliant Web browser. After that, everything else is gravy.

In this era when we're all realizing that infomediaries are needed, why won't Netscape realize that building such features into a Web browser really is a value-added feature--thereby realizing that they can monetize that? Build a solid, bare-bones Web browser that works, and sell the extras in stores and online as a value-added upgrade. I think I'd consider that to be a good thing as a consumer.

Geof F. Morris

Everything that has need to be said has been, just adding my name.

Chad Day

Microsoft is kicking your ass. Mozilla was supposed to demonstrate the benefits of Open Source and how it can be better than closed source.
Clearly the Open Source software development model sucks.

Another thing, dont ignorantly blame AOL for this mess.

All you people that say Microsoft sucks ..why dont you compare the browsers and see which one wins in terms of standards compliance and ESPECIALLY stability and speed.

Microsoft is the clear winner.

-Johan

PS> Mozilla, prove me wrong.

Johan S

Standards compliance and stability are the only way to go. All of the shopping and search tabs in the world won't decide what browser I use. What will decide is whether or not the browser in question will render the pages I want to look at properly, and do so without crashing. It would also be a major bonus if it would do so while consuming only a reasonable amount of ram, or have developers forgotten that not everyone has a dual 800Mhz CPU workstation with 512 megs of ram in it? That horsepower is for compiling you applications, not running them! You can rest assured of one thing Netscape: At least I will never use IE, at least until they release a version for *nix, and only then if it works better than something else I have. Clean up your act, or find another business.

Drew Sanford

Hey Netscape. You can't very well claim full support for standards compliance when you fail in your standard support.

From Netscape's website, "... full support for XML, CSS level 1 and DOM (among others..."

So if you're promising full support. That's what you should deliver. Make sure it's fixed before you release.

Ben Ceschi

As a developer, I already urge my clients to not support browsers and platforms that would make development too costly. Currently this includes AOL and IE 4.5 for the Mac, but it appears that Netscape 6 will soon be added to this list.

Andrew Smull

Consider what a drubbing Netscape and AOL will get in the popular and trade press in releasing software with bugs that were fixed but not accepted by the product development team. Any advnatage gained by an earlier release will be quickly negated as users and developers discover these problems.

The good news is that Mozilla will live on and compete with the Netscape-branded offering. There will be a standards-compliant platform, one way or another.

Mark J. Gardner

I for one, will be encouraging my clients and business partners to support Explorer if this happens. I hardly even make an attempt to check Netscape work unless I get a specific complaint about it.

Chris Baley

Maybe AOL is trying to imitate MS...

Anyway, here ya go:
Please release Netscape 6.0 whenever it's ready, not before.

Guillaume Lafrance

Please, do the right thing.

Matt Smith

Standards compliance on the web is something that needs to be taken very seriously and I encourage you to do so. Yes, maybe Mozilla is more that just web browser, but 99.9% of your customers aren't going to care about that.

I've been a netscape user for several years now, and I'm fed up as it is. Its infuriating when I have to stand up and walk over to another machine to use IE in order to view a web page that doesn't even use plugins!

Michael Crozier

I'd agree... a delay's far better than shipping a buggy browser, especially when many of the bugs have been fixed.

Tim O'Toole

Please, do the right thing.

Matt Smith

Many of us who are developing applications for the Web are counting on standards compliance to ease the burden of supporting multiple browsers. Compliance with standards means working code; just having the intent is not good enough. The only thing worse than having multiple browsers that don't provide working standards compliance is having just one that doesn't. Please don't let that happen.

Dennis Irwin

I know AOL is the king of non-standards but Netscape can be use to destroy the reputation or make it permanent. If they want to kill Netscape they are doing a great job maybe they should add even more bugs and make it totally incompatible with ALL standards. If not then make it compliant before even thinking of releasing it.

As it is our company change to IE as the default browser because of all the problems with Netscape 4.x. But with IE 5.5 Netscape is been looked at as the solution since it has a some problems. But so far with Netscape 6 it maybe that IE will definately win thank to Netscape itself. That will be sad that we have to pick between very sucky and super sucky software (you can code what you want to be).

I would say, either fix the bugs immediately or prepare to fade away.

I wonder if that is the reason AOL recommends IE over Netscape.

J. Joseph

For a long time I have noticed netscape getting worse and worse. Or maybe it's just IE getting better and better.

In any case, netscape has become a horrible web browser. The linux versions of netscape 4.x barely work, and the windows versions aren't much better. Mozilla seems to be a bit better than netscape, but it's still nowhere close to where IE is. Hopefully this situation will get better in the future, but I honestly don't see it happening.

Netscape needs to either 1) Give up or 2) Start over.

Carey Tilden

Do the right thing.

Ian Muttoo

This is totally disheartening. I spent some time listening to the product team at Spring Internet World in LA this past spring. They hailed NS6 as the most compliant browser to date. They showed off the xul, xml, and other rich features claiming this would bring about the next browsing/web app revolution. This revolution is going to be hard to bring about with a broken application.

No wonder AOL software has always been built on IE.

Russell Smith

Please, don't publish Netscape Navigator with bugs in standards Compliance

Marek Cervenka

Standards compliance is one of the core promises of the Mozilla project. Netscape 6 will become the embodiment of Mozilla that most users and working developers will be exposed too. The Netscape marketing department needs to understand that standards compliance is one of the chief selling points for their product and unnecessary compromise will hurt the credibility of both the Mozilla project and Netscape.

No software is perfect on initial release. However, if there are fixes that can be made to ensure the greatest possible standards compliance without unduly jeopardizing stability, then I urge Netscape to implement as many of those changes as possible.

The Microsoft machine may habitually shove late beta product out the door and call it a “release” but I don’t think Netscape can afford to adopt that strategy.

Mark Giglione

Hmm... As a web developer, I usually have to develop my site for the least common denominator. This means basic CSS and JavaScript commands. If this version of Netscape is released, then that common denominator will drop. This means that either A) I redesign everything B) I bloat my code or C) I fork my pages. None are acceptable. I might just write off Netscape 6 and not develop for it and damn anyone who uses it to broken pages. If this starts to happen on a wide scale then Netscape's market share will drop even more.

The only people who are happy with a shoddy on-time release are the middle managers and the accountants.

Robert Dixon

The stardards need to be fixed. I am finding that most of the W3C standards are working better in IE5.5 then they do in Mozilla M18. its driving me nuts!

Sean C

Duh - if the browser doesn't work (i.e., it doesn't render pages properly,
and isn't standards-compliant) it won't be supported.

The effect of holding back will be that thousands of pointy-haired bosses,
designers, and developers will move from supporting 4th-generation
browsers (note plural) to Explorer because: "well, everyone can just
switch to IE, it works better, and it's easier to support".

Please don't let this happen.

Bob Donahue

Please fix these standards-related defects before releasing Netscape 6.

The promise for NS6 was for a standards-compliant browser; anything less
will be a great blow to your reputation.

Richard Bullington-McGuire

For better or worse NS6 has been touting itself as *the* standards compliant browser. I find it sad you plan to release it without fully fixing all the bugs that can adversely effect sites that use DHTML.

What then, makes you better than IE? IE, at this time is more compliant than NS4. But I really want FULLY compliant, not MORE compliant. Haven't web developers spent enough time finding work arounds to buggy browsers? FULLY compliant has been the pulpit NS has been banging on since Gecko was released - and I hate to see this decay into yet another case of corporate hypocracy.

Due to the long, (OK really looong!) development cycle, I would guess most of the damage has already been done - one more month will not make a difference. As is, it will be hard enough to get the userbase to adopt NS over IE without having to have them upgrade a short time later.

Regardless, I wish you luck - for those of us who want DOM compliance, you are our best hope for setting an example of a browser done right. Please don't fail us.

David Snyder

Come on, Netscape, listen to the Mozilla-folk. Put those fixes in, DON'T release bad software for the sake of getting it out the door. I would say I expect that type of behavior from M$, but IE5 was relatively good on release compared to what NS6 would be if released today. The java gaffes are atrocious. PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE correct these compliance issues before release. My domain thanks you.

Damon A. Schmidt
aka Zeitgeist
http://www.godmonkey.com

Damon A. Schmidt

For better or worse NS6 has been touting itself as *the* standards compliant browser. I find it sad you plan to release it without fully fixing all the bugs that can adversely effect sites that use DHTML.

What then, makes you better than IE? IE, at this time is more compliant than NS4. But I really want FULLY compliant, not MORE compliant. Haven't web developers spent enough time finding work arounds to buggy browsers? FULLY compliant has been the pulpit NS has been banging on since Gecko was released - and I hate to see this decay into yet another case of corporate hypocracy.

Due to the long, (OK really looong!) development cycle, I would guess most of the damage has already been done - one more month will not make a difference. As is, it will be hard enough to get the userbase to adopt NS over IE without having to have them upgrade a short time later.

Regardless, I wish you luck - for those of us who want DOM compliance, you are our best hope for setting an example of a browser done right. Please don't fail us.

David Snyder

I have been following netscape 6 for some time and am quite disappointed in it so far. Please fix the bugs and problems before releasing it. I used to be a netscape fan (at least until netcrap 4 came out). Up till then netscape led the way. I feel IE is a better browser that is easier to develope for. I was hoping Netscape 6 would solve this problem and close the gap between teh two browsers. From what I have seen so far is Netscape 6 broadens this gap and a lot of current websites that work in IE and Netscape browsers will not work in Netscape 6... Please do yourself and all of the web devel people a favor and release a product that works!

Lotus

Lotus Pait

I agree completely with David Flanagan's comments. Please reconsider putting
this product out until ALL these bugs are fixed.

I was a great fan of Netscape since version 2.0 but becomes really disappointed since the 4.0 release. On Linux I use now Mozilla and Konqueror. On Windows and Mac: IExplorer.

Without removing those bugs, I think that Netscape misuse the potentiality of the opensourceproject "Mozilla": it's a shame!

I have a filmmaker background and I can tell that standards are very important. In 1895 Edison invented the first filmcamera and at the same time the 35mm filmformat. This standard was accepted worldwide and the filmindustry was born. Nobody has ever had the idea to make a 32mm or 30mm filmformat for his or her own businesses...

Netscape: be aware, this will in the end turn against you!

Konrad Maquestieau

Isn't it about time developers can start saying "It works in Netscape, but not IE" instead of the other way around??

Netscape 6 can have as many bells and whistles as they like (most of which I will instantly turn off), but if it doesn't display pages properly, who will use it?

Mark Evan Jones

Hey people, do the right thing (as you know in hearts) and the $$$ will follow.

Felix Lee

I think you know you the right way to do this thing, Netscape/AOL, and it is about time you did it. Get it right, non-standard is not useful!

Troy Johnson

Save our hair. Don't annoy your developers. Do the right thing. We waited long
enough for NS6; an extra week or two isn't going to make a difference.

Geoff Schmidt

Quit acting like Microsoft!

Nate Tanner

Netscape - fix bugs related to standard compliance if you don't
want remaining developers move to IE.

Igor Mendelev

I thought that standards compliance was what netscape 6 was supposed to address...

Surely it is madness to refuse to include fixes for bugs if they exist already, what are they scared of? Full standards compliance is surely a higher priority than a short slip of the release date. I've already tested the PR3 release and found it to be pretty unreliable still, especially when it comes to running java applets. Netscape - GET IT RIGHT!!! We want a compliant browser (and browser vendor!!!)
alex@digicode-systems.co.uk

Alex Clements

Please don't release NS6 until it is right. The issue isn't really that you're rushing it out, as others above have pointed up, in thoughts that you are instantly going to be competing with MSIE, so why not do it right? If you do, it will be easier for all of us to encourage its use. But if you don't, it will be like falling off a log to ignore it and tell others to do the same.

Trip Kirkpatrick

Please, take an example from Debian developers: Do not release a program with KNOWN bugs! Respect the standars!

José Daniel Muńoz Frías

As a Linux enthusiast, I am constantly dismayed by the lack of a good, reliable browser for Linux. This is ironic given that Linux was basically born on the web. My Netscape (any version) will crash about every 30 minutes or so during heavy surfing, and will occasionally even freeze the OS itself. The one desktop application that Linux must absolutely have is a good browser. If the network is the computer, then the browser is the OS. Come on, Netscape, help us out.

Chris Turner

As a Linux enthusiast, I am constantly dismayed by the lack of a good, reliable browser for Linux. This is ironic given that Linux was basically born on the web. My Netscape (any version) will crash about every 30 minutes or so during heavy surfing, and will occasionally even freeze the OS itself. The one desktop application that Linux must absolutely have is a good browser. If the network is the computer, then the browser is the OS. Come on, Netscape, help us out.

Chris Turner

I thought that standards compliance was what netscape 6 was supposed to address...

Surely it is madness to refuse to include fixes for bugs if they exist already, what are they scared of? Full standards compliance is surely a higher priority than a short slip of the release date. I've already tested the PR3 release and found it to be pretty unreliable still, especially when it comes to running java applets. Netscape - GET IT RIGHT!!! We want a compliant browser (and browser vendor!!!)
alex@digicode-systems.co.uk

Alex Clements

0. Release dates are set by marketing, not development.
1. Only compliance to the the de facto standards counts.
2. IE is better and faster anyway.

Forget Netscape.

K Vainstein

I'm with David, AOL/Netscape should not release the 6.0 version
with these bugs, that appear to have existing fixes. Having these
non-compliance bugs in a beta release is one thing, but in the
first release is another, and will discourage development for
Netscape Navigator (which is already far behind in market share to
IE (75% IE to 17% NS according to yesterday's webref.com's logs).

Mozilla/Netscape 6 was initially touted as *the* standards-compliant
browser, and many develpers pinned their hopes on one of the two
major browser vendors seeing the light. Writing cross-browser
JavaScript/DHTML is becoming more difficult every day (as our experts
will tell you), with these
growing differences between browsers, releasing another major
version without stamping out these DHTML-complexity-increasing
bugs is a bad idea.

The folks at Mozilla/Netscape/AOL have done an admirable job in
creating Mozilla/Netscape 6 (however long it took), we just need to convince
AOL's accounting dept to let the techies do their job and finish
it up.

- Andy King
Managing Editor
WebReference.com

andy king

Failure to deliver a fully standards compliant browser will crush the hopes of developers the world-over, forcing us to toss Netscape into the rubbish heap of failed crusades of the past.

Barry Weiss

I love Netscape, and prefer it to IE because it is my preferred mail reader too. I want to be able to use it as my browser full-time, but compatability issues like to ones outstanding in version 6 prevent me from doing so. If you release 6.0 without FULLY supporting existing standards, I can't use it. Don't even bother.

Christina Garden

I'm with David, AOL/Netscape should not release the 6.0 version
with these bugs, that appear to have existing fixes. Having these
non-compliance bugs in a beta release is one thing, but in the
first release is another, and will discourage development for
Netscape Navigator (which is already far behind in market share to
IE (75% IE to 17% NS according to yesterday's webref.com logs).

Mozilla/Netscape 6 was initially touted as *the* standards-compliant
browser, and many develpers pinned their hopes on one of the two
major browser vendors seeing the light. Writing cross-browser
JavaScript/DHTML is becoming more difficult every day (as our experts
will tell you), with these
growing differences between browsers, releasing another major
version without stamping out these DHTML-complexity-increasing
bugs is a bad idea.

The folks at Mozilla/Netscape/AOL have done an admirable job in
creating Mozilla/Netscape 6 (however long it took), we just need to convince
AOL's accounting dept to let the techies do their job and finish
it up.

- Andy King
Managing Editor
WebReference.com

andy king

I don't pretend to know the various factors and considerations that go into the decision-making process in cases like this, but all I can say is that as a web developer, I have my hopes pinned on your 6.0 browser. Please address the bugs upfront! I want you to succeed, and as far as I'm concerned, that means full standards compliance. Good luck!

Michael Barrish

I'm using Netscape since 1.0, still using it, but now I do use more Mozilla. I'm using it for web programming and testing, the XUL interface do look a good idea, it's a future perfect software window.

But, Netscape do need to get a compliant browser on the market, or they will surely suffer from it, how can it be worst to wait a little longer, if it's better why not?

Francis Fillion

Fix the sucker before you release it.

Ben Galbraith

I strongly concur.
It seems that if a buggy non-standard release is acceptable, they could have shipped a year ago.
I understand and applaud their determination to make tough decisions on what to accept and what to punt on for release criteria; but I also encourage them to revisit the customer's perspective.
The chance to win the browser war has been lost. But here's a chance to take the high ground, and bring back much needed respect for Netscape.
Standards Compliance and removing crashing bugs should be at the top of the list for release criteria.

Wayne Steele

As a web developer, I'm continually running into frustrating problems with Netscape's standards compliance, particularly in the area of CSS. I'm tired of having to limit my pages to those things that Netscape can handle, rather than taking advantage of all that should be possible with HTML 4.

Dave Dean

You would have thought that the Netscape gang would have learned something from Microsoft. But apparently not. The couldn't beat Microsoft playing their own game, what makes Netscape think they can beat Microsoft playing Microsoft's game. <mine, mine, mine, back, back, back>.

Daffy had a better shot getting the genie's treasure.

Philip Grillo

Guys, PLEASE don't release a non-compliant version of the browser.
"Just Say No" to Steve Case and his band of marketers, and fix the damned
thing. I am stuck in a Microsoft world at work, where I am the only Netscape
user, and I use Netscape at home on my Linux boxen, and I have been a big
supporter of Netscape years. But if you release a sub-standard, non-compliant
piece of crap, you will finally do what Bill Gates has not been able to do,
and that is drive me away.



Good thing Opera has it's Linux version almost ready.

Sigh.

Andrew Wallace

I teach an advanced web development course at the local University, and sadly, we have to do everything in IE, because Netscape 4 dosen't properly support the standards I'm supposed to be teaching. This is somewhat disapointing, since I don't use windows on my own systems, but am forced to use IE, in order to plan lessons for my classes. One of the reasons IE is becoming so much more popular than Netscape as a browser is because of the sheer number of things IE supports, which Netscape does not. Releasing a broken browser which still does not support any of the current standards will not help you - it will only help Microsoft, and give them more points for advertizing. I can see Microsoft's next ad for IE now: "Use our browser, we can spell, and our competition can't. Oh, it works better too."

Terry McKay

Guys, PLEASE don't release a non-compliant version of the browser.
"Just Say No" to Steve Case and his band of marketers, and fix the damned
thing. I am stuck in a Microsoft world at work, where I am the only Netscape
user, and I use Netscape at home on my Linux boxen, and I have been a big
supporter of Netscape years. But if you release a sub-standard, non-compliant
piece of crap, you will finally do what Bill Gates has not been able to do,
and that is drive me away.



Good thing Opera has it's Linux version almost ready.

Sigh.

andy

Andrew Wallace

I urge netscape to not release the buggy code. If netscape 6 fails, businesses will assume that it is the open-source bazaar model that has failed.

Brian Abent

I am a professional site developer working on projects ranging from common small-business sites to web-based applications used by police departments nationwide. I've personally spent more than a hundred hours simply identifying and attempting to work around the flaws found in Netscape's 4.X range of browsers, so to hear that tested fixes for known bugs in the new Netscape browser aren't going to be included in the initial release is Really Bad News.

While the development of public-accessable web sites will obviously have to continue with the burden of "working around" a flawed product, this is not so for the private, web-based Law Enforcement software I also help develop. We CAN solve the problem of a browser delivered by a company that refuses to include fixes for known and serious bugs; we'll advise our clients not to use it.

Regards,

Chris Wenham

Chris Wenham

Please get Netscape 6's standards compliance to a reasonable
level before release, and make sure it is stable. (Fix the
blocking problems with the search results window also.;) I'm
using Netscape 6 PR3 on Linux to post this...

Don't skimp on the Java support either!

I'd suggest keeping the product in beta until you start getting
some glowing reviews... ;-)

Terry Sikes

If Netscape 6 is released before it meets standards compliance then
all web developers will ever after be stuck supporting this flawed
implementation and no other web browser developers will ever have something
to shoot for.

Joshua Marinacci

Please get Netscape 6's standards compliance to a reasonable
level before release, and make sure it is stable. (Fix the
blocking problems with the search results window also.;)

Don't skimp on the Java support either!

I'd suggest keeping the product in beta until you start getting
some glowing reviews... ;-)

Terry Sikes

netscape has always been my favorite browser....until recently. i am an html developer and have become increasingly fed up with netscape. if microsoft's internet explorer completely buries netscape --and clearly it is doing just that -- it won't be because i.e. is a superior product, it will be because the folks at netscape just don't get it. if they're not going to shape up, then good riddance.

j. m. greaney

The W3C should have some sort of 'mark' like Java does, so that they could keep Netscape from claiming that their browser is 'compatible' with HTML.

Netscape has also been having problems with their Java compliance; you will note that the Java logo does not appear in the about screen!

Netscape will just lose if it tries to go proprietary. Microsoft already has that territory staked out. Developers will code to the 'standard' such as it is and make exceptions for IE because it has market share. It isn't worth it to code to a non-conforming browser if it doesn't have market share. The only way they can survive is to embrace the standards fully.

Fran Taylor

Totally agree with David. As ađ web designer, I have been waiting for the release of ns6, in the hope of finally being able to use some of the cool features of the DOM and CSS. But no.. this only means that there is one more browser that I have to write specifically for.. Now I have to worry about the ie and ns4.x families of browsers AND ns6.. (not to mention all the other brands, and also the legacy versions of ie and ns, witch I don't care about anyways though..)

Sindri S. Sighvatsson

save me from MS.

Matt Burke

Someone said that web developers make or break the success of browsers. This is obviously not true, Netscape 4.x sucks major ass, and we still have to support it, for millions of people use it, and the people who pay our salaries don't want to loose that customerbase. Commercial web developers can not fight back.

However, "hobby-sites" (ones not funded by salaries [I know everything is funded by salaries]) should print out something like "GET A REAL BROWSER", if Netscape in fact releases a non-compliant browser, and someone tries to view the page using it.

I believe that this would have an influence, quite simply because there are so many "hobby-sites" out there. Ie. all open-source projects qualify!

Maro

Maro

save me from MS.

Matt Burke

Realeasing a buggy, half-vast version as Netscape 6.0 would be a marketing disaster that would destroy every bit of credibility Netscape might have left. I have been waiting patiently for years for v. 6.0, and I would rather wait another month or two than get a buggy piece of garbage.

John F. Sowa

I'd like to say I was shocked to read this article, but I can't. Unless my memory is already failing me, AOL is the master here and we all know their toon.

I am disappointed by what I just read, and urge whoever in the development team that still cares about a quality product and getting back into the battle, to fight for a quality release.

Jason

Jason

Please don't release a known-buggy product. Do it right the first time.
Schedules aren't as important as a working browser. We would rather wait and get a release thats worth using.

Thanks!

Michael Turner

There was a time, long ago, when I looked forward to the release of new versions of the Netscape browser. I remember when it was in competition against Mosaic (yup, been around *that* long ;-) and they started adding silly tags like <BLINK> in order to get people to preferrentially use Netscape over Mosaic (or the very early IE).

Then, when Netscape decided to expand out of its core business (browsers), things seemed to go horribly wrong. And as a result Netscape Navigator started to lag behind Internet Explorer in terms of implementing features and even standards. When I wrote a book on CSS, I was dismayed at how many more elements were supported in Opera or IE over NN. Then along came Mozilla, which seemed to solve the problem of Netscape's perennial problem of dealing with Web standards.

Then I saw the preview releases of Netscape 6. Uck. What happened to the Web standards implementations guys? I was truly shocked at what I saw (or rather, what I didn't see).

As a professional Web developer, I really want to see improvements in the implementation of Web standards, so that I can reliably build Web sites without having to constantly aware of the bugs in certain browsers that standards were supposed to overcome. Argh.

Author of Core CSS (Prentice Hall)

(I may write for the competition, but I am definately behind O'Reilly in this case ;-)

Keith Schengili-Roberts

Get with it Netscape. If 6 isn't compliant, I won't be designing for it. It's taking forever to replace the egregious Netscape 4, do it right for christ's sake. Your terrible browser has already caused me enough headaches.

Larry vanKampen

Dear Netscape,
As a developer, I am requesting that you delay release of Netscape 6 until some of the serious remaining issues are fixed.
I write with the perspective of a developer and I am concerned that a buggy netscape6 will delay progression of a more powerful internet.

Please consider your long term future over the short term one. Many developers are hoping that netscape 6 will bring netscape back into the game. A buggy netscape6 may discourage some of them, like me, to abandon it.

topherZ

Christopher Zimmermann

I knew that when AOL bought Netscape, that it was the beginning of the end for this browser. I had hopes for the Mozilla Open Source Project to actually do what it intended and create the first truly compliant browser so that developers like myself could finally code for the HTML specification, as agreed upon. Sadly, all hopes have been dashed. Netscape is now relagated to the garbage heap. They might as well just stop with version 4.7 and call it quits!

Patrick Beart

I just hope that all of the AOL users do not start using a buggy netscape browser that will make coding web pages difficult. Then again, if they do, perhaps people will realize all of the problems. You have to smack someone for them to realize their mistake.

Shawn Palmer

Please wait just a little bit to get the fixes noted by David F., or else call this a beta release with a a follow up that has the fixes. Thank you.

Jeff Martin

As a web developer, I find it irritating that Netscape would fail to support standards. It is a constant struggle to build a complex web application that works across many browsers. It would be trivial to create a standards compliant site, and assume that it will be viewable on any platform. Unfortunately, Netscape prevents this. I should not have to have two sets of code--one standard, and one Netscape specific. This is absurd.

Ryan Williams

I currently use Netscape as my default browser because I know if I can make features work in NN, they will work anywhere. I would love to make IE my default browser. It sounds like, however, that I'll get to stick with NN as the lowest common denominator.

Do a good release, please.

David Graham

I am a web manager for a software company. Currently we do not support Netscape due to non-compliance with CSS. We had been hoping to support Netscape 6, but will only do so if it is truly compliant. If not we will drop all Netscape support...

JW Morgan

I work at a research center with 6000 outside users. They access our very critical cancer data via HTML, so browsers, for us, are not toys. Our standard browser for HTML development has been Netscape 4 for a while, but we will not be moving to Netscape 6 until it complies with all standards, including and especially javascript. I expect it will be ready by about 6.3.

Jason Powers

After all these years we have followed you, yet you fail us. Mozilla was our one last hope that developers could finnally code for the one "true" browser. Your failure to release the true working browser will cost you dearly. Programmers will no longer be content to program around your bugs but will return to the days of 3.0, but no longer saying you need Netscape.

Christopher Morris

All I have to say is please balance out on features/stability and release schedule for NS6 :)

Nathan.

Nathan Tran

Please don't give us another crappy non-standards-compliant browser to be IE's whipping boy. That sucks.

Joseph Enrique

While I think it's long overdue for Netscape 5 to be released (made even more obvious by the fact that it's been renamed to Netscape 6), it makes no sense to refuse to accept bugfixes that have already been reviewed and tested, especially with trivial fixes and ones which affect standards compliance. Standards compliance was the only reason the Netscape release was delayed for years; to omit such bugfixes at this late stage is insulting to those who believe in standards. Since those people are a large fraction of Netscape's waning supporters, alienating them is shortsighted.

Don't allow a long delay for standards-compliance bugs that you don't know how to fix, if the browser will still be stable and usable. Do incorporate the fixes for problems that have been solved, or you'll look like fools, especially with fixes as trivial as fixing spelling errors in messages...

Deven T. Corzine

C'mon Netscape - your browsers have had... display problems until now, so please get it right for once!

Ross Burton

Netscape:

Fix the bugs in NN 6 and you will win the support of the Web Development community; release NN 6 as is and you will lose whatever dwindling support you have left. Pretty simple, really.

R.S. Willcox

Web Developer

Randall S. Willcox

I use to think Netscape was THE browser to use and IE was a not worth the effort. I was angry at Micro$oft for releasing IE and not following standards. Now we have Netcrap 6 about to be released which is about to do the same thing that IE did a few years ago. I feel betrayed. I don't like Micro$oft. But, I have to admit that they do have a better browser and they are better at following the standards.

I was hoping that Netcrap 6 could turn the browser wars back around. If this release is published and is full of bugs and is not following standards, Netscape will end up in the same trash heap as many other software products. Better to delay and get it right than release it and get bad press.

These are my thoughts, your milage may vary.

Randall Woodman

really netscape

its the web developers that will make or break your browser. make them happy or they will just forget about you altogeather.

nurb

really netscape

its the web developers that will make or break your browser. make them happy or they will just forget about you altogeather.

nurb

Please get the standards compliance correct first. Too much time is wasted by web developers writing to both IE and NS. Put compliance first.

John Selph

I used to think Netscape was THE browser to use and IE was a not worth the effort. I was angry at Micro$oft for releasing IE and not following standards. Now we have Netcrap 6 about to be released which is about to do the same thing that IE did a few years ago. I feel betrayed. I don't like Micro$oft. But, I have to admit that they do have a better browser and they are better at following the standards.

I was hoping that Netcrap 6 could turn the browser wars back around. If this release is published and is full of bugs and is not following standards, Netscape will end up in the same trash heap as many other software products. Better to delay and get it right than release it and get bad press.

These are my thoughts, your milage may vary.

Randall Woodman

As a small time web site developer, I try to develop HTML pages that look the same on both Netscape and Internet Explorer. Recently this has become VERY hard. Trying to develop dynamic content for Netscape is extremly difficult. While I am a fan of Netscape, Internet Explorer is much easier to build webpages for simply because the browser is generally standards compliant. I urge Netscape to do the same; fix Netscape 6.0 before releasing it commercially. Please!

Michael Cameron

I have been talking the Mozilla project up to all of my friends because the goals were on the mark. Please, don't burden us - the web developers - with yet another compromised browser. You've already alienated every other segment of your user base; don't alienate the hopeful among web developers who are truly your last hope. The only reason we're sticking around is our hope of standards compliance. Take that hope away, and you have nothing besides a group of disgruntled web developers and a browser you cannot sell.

Jonathan Blake

Another worthless browser from Netscape? Nothing new. Netscape is a goner anyway, and the sooner it dies the better. People are sick and tired of continuous struggle trying to support NS with its ridiculous implementations of standards that has been out there for years. Please release 6.0 as soon as possible!

Kirill

I am sad to hear that Netscape is failing in the stated objective to produce a standars compliant browser.

I have been saying for years that all browsers suck and I was hoping that NS 6 would change that, sadly I was wrong.

Then again what can we expect from the company that started breaking from HTML standars with tags such as <CENTER> and <BLINK>?

Rob Rutherford

Back to the drawing-board, guys. We're sick of being caught between two corporate agendas, and it's time somebody cared about quality.

Barry King

Ever hear of a code freeze?

For all you web developers out there, that's the point where the client, after hearing your latest excuse as to why their corporate website is still not done yet, turns red and says "I don't care if the monkey does not dance. I don't care if our logo is not spinning and not on fire. I want a goddamn website. Have it done by Friday or you do not get paid."

It is the point in the lifecycle of a project where you DON'T ADD NEW STUFF. You know what works, you know what doesn't. You set a release date and gauge what will and will not make it in by that release date. High priority items get in. Lower things often get dropped. That means that you'll have oustanding issues with the final release. No matter how long they delay it, there are going to be bugs there, so at some point you have to draw a line and say "We are never going to make the monkey dance and catch fire. It's one or the other. These are tough times and tough choices must be made." And no matter which one you decide is needed more, someone, somewhere is going to complain "The macarena monkey is neat, but why isn't he burning? I need him to be on fire because XYZ corp.'s flying dolphin does it too!"

Jobo Denballa

Do the right thing...listen to the web design/development community and fix the bugs they (and your own developers) say are needed.

If Netscape loses the support of these groups, they're sunk.

Jason Allgire

While I don't really believe that Netscape will listen to the voice of reason and change their minds, I feel obligated to at least speak out in the vain hope that someone at Netscape is listening. As so many people have said before in the petition, the cost for developers and users of not getting Netscape 6 right the first time is more than the cost of delaying the release a little longer. What happens when normal users take the time to download and install Netscape 6 on their 56k modems only to realize that frames don't operate correctly (Bug #46828 which took the developers begging and pleading with the the PDT to accept the patch that fixes the bug. It's still not 100% guarenteed to be in the the release.) After frames don't work, or web sites don't behave correctly users won't bother downloading Netscape 6.01 that fixes these problems, they'll jump to a different browser (Opera, IE, etc).
Netscape: Take a step back and consider the flack you'll receive from developers and users alike before you decide to stick with things Marketing wants (which in and of itself is infamous for destroying good products).

Casey Peel

I totally agree with Mr. Flanagan - the bugs still existing in the Mozilla bug database, after 2 1/2 years in the project cycle, are horrifying. I was forced to switch to IE after holding out on Netscape for a long long time and until I am shown otherwise, I can't begin to consider going back. And seeing the DOM and CSS implementations so shoddily managed is a strong reminder of why I switched, and why I'll stay. I really don't like Microsoft, but I don't have a choice.

Ross Snyder

OH PLEASE! The last thing we need is another browser that doesn't follow the rules. Come on Netscape - it's simple, if the browser follows the rules, all the rules, release it. Until then, don't release.

KAS

I really am sick of netscape, so I say BRING IT ON

Im all for the premature release of netscape 6, as it will almost certainly mean the downfall of netscape.. and for that, I would almost be willing to pay.

When NS6 goes 'gold', hits the shelves, and drags the company down to a 1 or 2% user base, I'll be there laughing, and when im done, ill run home and design webpages will all the fun toys netscape has been depriving us of using for the last 2 years.

JT

What can I say that hasn't already been said by hundreds of others? A premature, non-compliant release of the Netscape browser will harm everyone, from the company, to its customers and users, to the web developers. Rushing a buggy release will do nothing to bolster an already suffering reputation. Taking the time and care to patch known bugs BEFORE distribution can do nothing but help all concerned. I, for one, wouldn't mind a bit waiting for a new Netscape browser that is fully functional and compliant with open standards. I'd prefer it. Ship a product with known public bugs, and I'll never have a reason to touch it.

Rob Abrazado

Flush Netscape down the drain and use IE exclusively.

T.A.B.

Netscape, I hope for the sake of your company that you delay the release of NS6.0 until the remaining major non-compliance issues/bugs are worked on.

There is an entire development team here waiting for your company's market share to drop below a significant number so we can drop support for your buggy and unreliable browsers.

Netscape didn't lose the browser wars because of Microsoft's monopoly and tactics, it lost because of Netscape shipping a sub-par, bug-ridden product.

Sing Chan

Let's see:

Disregard for Standards,
Disrefard for bug fixes
Disregard for common practices
Disrefard for inhouse developers
Disregard for outside developers
Constant focus on the marketing boys


Wow, I am so proud of Netscape, they are even adopting Microsoft's approach to the development of standards and practices. How special!

Here I was waiting for Netscape 6.0 to redesign my site... Here I was proud that over 45% of the people who come to my site use Netscape...

Why does it have to be Microsoft's competition that drives me to use Microsoft's products.

Ted Tschopp

From my experience developing high level DHTML for cross-browser use, I am continually amazed at those people (Windows users) that still claim that developing for NS is easier than developing for IE.. and that NS (again, on Windows) is better. To those people I say you must not have been doing anything very advanced at all.

Everything I try seems to work first in IE and then tweaked for NS. It becomes so frustrating. It is dissappointing to find that the the problems that have plagued the users and developers of web applications for years now are STILL the problems plaguing us!

Aren't we in the future yet?

Todd Poston

Todd Poston

Well... I use IE on Windows almost exclusively. It's really good. But I think Mozilla's not that far. K-meleon was a good proof-of-concept. If it becomes more stable and compliant, I might start switching over. I've been keeping my fingers crossed for several years now, I can keep them crossed a bit longer. Keep up the good work.

Kai Carver

Another bug-ridden and non-standards-compliant browser would be detrimental to the Netscape brand name and the entire World Wide Web.

mark burdett

For the sake of the good Netscape name, please ensure the best standards
compliance practical in Netscape 6.0 final.

Frank Warmerdam

I can't even get NS6 on my Mac to load right without crashing on the homepage (Which is an Excite@Home page with a Flash pop-up screen). So I don't even touch it!

Adam Bell

Please Please Please Please Please

Netscape can only win by putting off the release a little (who ever heard of an on-time release helping anyone except marketing? it has very little effect in the long run) in order to release a standards compliant browser. See Intel's latest "effort" (releasing a product at 1.13 GHz first is great, if you don't mind all the awful PR when everyone finds out it doesn't actually work). Same thing.

If Netscape doesn't support the standards that a large part of the industry has agreed upon, M$ by default becomes "standard" rather than having multiple products that implement standards to varying levels of accuracy. This is only bad for consumers and developers and Netscape alike.

Tech folks can always just fall back on Mozilla in its various incarnations- it seems the good developers over there are doing the work that should be done- but whether or not Netscape acknowledges this will make a real difference in the future of that company and the technology used by millions of consumers.

Hans Kieserman

In our computer lab we offer both Netscape and IE. Due to difficulties with Netscape's interface with our on-line course management software, most of our students use IE already.

It looks like there will be no reason for me to update Netscape when it comes out. I'll probably end up eliminating it alltogether.

Jay C. Batzner

Please Please Please Please Please

Netscape can only win by putting off the release a little (who ever heard of an on-time release helping anyone except marketing? it has very little effect in the long run) in order to release a standards compliant browser. See Intel's latest "effort" (releasing a product at 1.13 GHz first is great, if you don't mind all the awful PR when everyone finds out it doesn't actually work). Same thing.

If Netscape doesn't support the standards that a large part of the industry has agreed upon, M$ by default becomes "standard" rather than having multiple products that implement standards to varying levels of accuracy. This is only bad for consumers and developers and Netscape alike.

Tech folks can always just fall back on Mozilla in its various incarnations- it seems the good developers over there are doing the work that should be done- but whether or not Netscape acknowledges this will make a real difference in the future of that company and the technology used by millions of consumers.

Hans Kieserman

Standards First!

Mark Knutsen

Standards compliance should be Netscape's #1 priority. After all this time, I am appalled that Netscape has spent its time and resources adding meaningless features instead of concentrating on what is the browser's main problem, both for developers and users.

As much as I hate most things Microsoft, when a Windows user asks my advice on what browser s/he should use, I can not in good conscience recommend Netscape over IE. Please fix the bugs that the Mozilla team sends you, make Netscape 100% open standards compliant, and you will win back many of the users and developers you've alienated over the years, such as myself.

Drake Emko

It has been nearly three years since netscape went open source. I cringe at every crash (1 every 10 minutes when viewing sites with java) with netscape 4.7 on linux. If there is anything that netscape can do to make this situation worse it would be to release a buggy product for 6.0. The press will fry netscape into oblivion, rightly so. I've seen the permenant damage that can be done releasing a product prematurely. All the rules are especially true here, given the spotlight. I'd rather wait another six months, I've waited this long.

iksrazal

I agree that it's time Netscape/AOL thinks about what's really important when developing a browser. Marketability and market share should come after usability user-friendliness, and standards compliance. What good is a browser if it does not support standards compliance? Then your users won't be able to fully benefit from the technologies developed over the past 5 years. This will lead to loss of market share, poor marketing strategies, and the death of the browser.

Mike King

The browser war is far from over. It is true that Netscape has lost a battle, and they do reside on the losing end, but it is far from over. Netscape needs to look beyond the immediate, wait until their browser is standards compliant. If they do not, it is very likely they will loose the browser war, as people toss out the non-compliant browser for a more compliant one. Compliance is a major issue, now. Moreso than ever, websites are measured for their compliance to open standards.

Netscape, please, please, please wait until compliance bugs are fixed. I work in a predominantly windows-based environment as a web developer, and if you do not take the time to release a standards-compliant browser, there is a good chance our environment will switch to IE.

Tim Hawes

While I love the Mozilla project, and I beleive that what they have done so far is nothing short of incredible, I can't beleive the fact that Netscape is pulling back bugfixes just to keep up with a release date. It would be different if this was mission critical, but the world has already been waiting for 2 years, another few months won't matter at all.

It would also be different if these bugs were not in the Standards Compliance area, which is the area in which mozilla is supposed to be the mother of all browsers. By compromising this, you compromise the entire mozilla process.

Marc D. Chapman

As a developer of a newly started web development company, I am sick and tired of html not looking the way it was developed because of the netscape browser. We try and make sure our projects work under both IE and Netscape, but we prefer IE. I have been eagerly awaiting Netscape 6 since I read that it WAS SUPPOSE IT COMPLY WITH STANDARDS. It would be nice to have a multi-platform standards compliant browser available. Since there isn't now, its quite frustrating to develop under linux with a sub-standard browser.



For now I'll continue to develop for IE. And soon for Mozilla, since they apparently know how to apply bug fixes.



Frustrated developer,

Dan Downs

Dan Downs

What is supposed to make Netscape 6.0 unique, worth waiting for, worth owning, and worth writing for is complete compliance with web standards. Releasing Netscape without the compliance is like M&M's that melt in your hands, Polaroid without the instant, or Frosted Flakes without Tony. What's the point? Do we really need another flakey version of Netscape? I hope the development team manages to realize that adherance to standards and not release date is what is really important here.

Dennis Kelley

Why is it so DAMN hard for you (Netscape PTP) to relase a bug-free, web standard compliant user-agent? The standards are well documented and the bugs are well tracked. What is the problem? I am a web developer that is sick & tired of trying to develop web pages for two separate browsers. I could ridicule Microsoft's IE4.0 or IE5.0 for there lack of compliance, but they are way ahead of the curve in making attempts to comply, leaving you (Netscape [insert any version here]in the dust! I was excitedly looking forward to the release of the Netscape 6.0 but it appears that Netscape has dropped the ball, AGAIN! Down with Netscape!

Frustrated Web Developer.

Tony Tosi

We don't need another buggy browser. I design web pages for a living and I'm in charge of browser choices for an ISP. It's really a pain trying to develope for the lowest common denominator (Netscape). If Netscape 6.0 is pushed out before it's ready, with compatibility bugs (which are the biggest issue in the readiness of netscape), then I have no choice but to discontinue all support of Netscape. We will recommend Internet Explorer to all new customers (we should be right now, but we gave it a chance and waited) and simply not support any netscape users. This seems severe, but it just is not acceptable to create a semi perfect browser for reasons that aren't valid.

I don't want to seem retaliatory, I simply hope that Netscape wakes up and starts to make better choices. If they don't, we'll see where their priorities lie and who they're really making the browser for.

James Yoneda

My involvement in web authoring goes back to the "early days" (c. 1994). Many of us who were around at that time have unpleasant memories of Netscape's arrogant disregard for web standards (HTML 3.0, anyone?). Their tendency to ignore the W3C and go their own way was mimicked by other companies, leading to the mess that HTML is in today. We will never know what could have been, had Netscape been willing to embrace intelligent standards and listen to those who actually write web pages. How ironic that their main competitor, Microsoft, was the first to "find religion" and support web standards.

Netscape 6 is a final chance for redemption. Will NS/AOL take advantage of this opportunity? The choice is theirs.

Mark Haun

Mark Haun

Netscape has lost any respect I might have ever had for them. As a former web programmer, I have seen for myself the horrors of dealing with non-compliant browsers. Netscape has shown that they care more about appearences than having functional code. Fscking losers.

Joe Yandle

Dear Mr Flanagan, you are dead wrong. Show me a more standards-compliant HTML browser on the market than Mozilla/NS6? IE? No. Show me a more XML-compliant browser? A browser with support for MathML, even partial - IE? No. SVG support, even partial - IE? No. XLink, even partial - IE? No. 'Nuff said.

Jari Perkiömäki

Netscape, You need to take the high ground and remain loyal to the open-source, open-standards that you claim to be a part of.

Mike Christiansen

I'm all for one-upping microsoft, but releasing as "final" a product that's not really final sounds too much like microsoft's own practices. I agree, Netscape should call it a beta and fix up the problems.

Adam Howard

It is simple common sense. Fix the bugs before Netscape 6 is released. The world has waited this long, it will wait until these bugs are fixed. The Netscape marketing department seems to have forgetten that cool websites that work are an important selling point, fixing these bugs is simply Netscape's best hope to regain marketshare.

Tyler Bannister

I'm really disappointed about this decission :( I see the future of the Internet only in open-standars and applications that follow them unrestricted. I'm also reporting bugs as far I found some and to hear that not all of them will be fixed is hard! I see in Netscape 6.0 the one and only chance to choose my OS indipendent of the availibilty of the Internet browser. If more and more developers focus on M$ where will be the indipendance?! Netscape should show them that there is a good and standard compiled alternative so it is no more required to use M$ specific extensions (VBS/ActiveX)! This can not be achived if Netscape/AOL follow the current way :(

Raphael Bossek

AOL just doesn't get it. That much is clear. What reason does anyone have for using Netscape instead of IE (or something else)? Open Standards compliance has never been and never will be something M$ does well. If it is somehting Netscape does well, then that is a significant delimiter.

Just stating the obvious.

Henry Meyerding

Henry Meyerding

A 'stable' branch -- Netscape 6 being a stable branch of Mozilla -- is only of value if it contains significantly fewer bugs than the trunk. Hence, it makes sense to fix any and all bugs found, even during a feature deep-freeze, as long as they do not introduce significant instabilities.

Sean Cier

Netscape engineers need to get over it - they already lost the browser wars! Delaying a release of 6.0 won't make a difference in their market share. They should delay to deliver the appropriate compilance. Won't give them anymore customers either way. :-)

Paul Nelson

Netscape has promised compliance with web standards since it started remaking its browsers. We've suffered through years of headaches with the 4.X versions. I aligned myself with the other petitions asking that Netscape get it right this time.

Mike
Web Developer
Inter-American Telecommunication Commission

Michael Smith

I'd been hoping to see some imitation of standards compatibility in the v.6 release. Unfortunately, the project's manager's have yet again diluted the value of what could have been a great project.

Ryan Punt

I agree completly with what is said in this petition. Please make Netscape 6 the best it can be by fixing the know bugs, I can wait.
John Brier

John

Dear Netscape, by forcing another non-standards-compliant release, you gain nothing but the ridicule of unimpressed users and the scorn (and probable exodus) of programmers such as myself. Do you really think that anything less than a fully standards-compliant browser has a chance against the much slicker Microsoft Internet Explorer? Standards compliance is your only possible selling point. As the current underdog, you *have* to do better just to hold your own. Take more time if you need it so that you can impress the users and developers rather than reinforce the impression that your products aren't up to snuff.

Ashley Jacobs

I hope that Netscape will come to its senses and stop being driven by its marketing goons. It is better to slip a date than to deliver a shoddy product. Netscape need to prove that it is commited to quality, and I'm guessing it got into its some of its current fix by ignoring its developers (lets not forget that the rest resulted from the monopolisting dirty tricks of the gnomes of Redmond). I'm more than happy to use 4.x and Mozilla until then - I refuse to use the product of those who would attempt to destroy my freedom to code and use the software and digital media of my choice.

Will O'Donovan

I have been rigorously defending Netscape from the urinals of history for several years now. A sizable percentage of the web development crowd has a good mind to flush Netscape and crown MSIE the undisputed and perpetual king of browsers (le roi est mort, vive le roi). This would include the end of this nonsense of coding two versions of a script because of DOM incompatibilities. Why support two DOMs if the second one is a fringe?

Were these sorts of mindsets to take hold, Netscape 4.76 users would have to join their compatriots using Netscape v2 or v3 in disabling JavaScript (or CSS) support to alleviate nasty-looking content with screens full of JavaScript (or VBScript!) errors. Granted, v4 has a JavaScript console rather than popping up obnoxious error messages, but it is still a pain.

If the Netscape/Mozilla teams plan to give up on their browser, perhaps I should do the same. Please say it ain't so, Mo' :(

Shane Beasley

We developers would much rather have the release be well-oiled than be here tomorrow. We can certainly wait another few months; we have been waiting for a while, so please concentrate on getting it right the first time. Don't mimic the Microsoft strategy.

-Jonathan Barlow
BARLOWnet.com

Jonathan Barlow

I think I speak for a lot of peopel when I say it should be done, and done right, by now. Netscape, you get the award for worst open source project ever.

Wayne Vinson

What was the point of open-sourcing Mozilla if they ignore the project's advice? We'll take your code, but ignore warnings about the code we take?

Joel York

News Flash!!! This just in!!!